Breaking Stigmas: Mental Health & Workplace Wellness With Brian Higgins

What happens when traditional mental health therapies fail? How might creative approaches unlock healing when nothing else works? Brian Higgins, Executive Director of Mental Healthy FIT, knows this territory intimately.

From experiencing homelessness while battling PTSD, depression, and addiction to founding an innovative mental health nonprofit, Brian's journey reveals powerful truths about human connection. "Mental health can be hereditary, but it's not contagious," he shares, highlighting how stigma prevents authentic engagement with those struggling most.

The conversation explores how the FIT approach—Films, Ideas, and Tips—transforms mental health conversations through creativity. Brian explains that while people may not relate to specific traumatic experiences, everyone understands fundamental emotions like fear, pain, and love. By communicating through creative mediums, connections form where clinical approaches often fail.

Particularly insightful is Brian's LEAP method (Listen, Empathize, Agree, Partner), offering a framework anyone can use to support others through mental health challenges. The discussion delves into workplace applications, examining disclosure concerns and how organizations can create psychologically safe environments where vulnerability isn't just permitted but modeled from leadership down.

Brian's practical tools—like "Thinkalopes" containing tips to boost serotonin—provide accessible entry points for immediate mental health support, while his insights on the biological stress response help listeners understand their own reactions to overwhelming situations.

Whether you're struggling personally, supporting someone who is, or seeking to create healthier workplace cultures, this conversation offers both compassionate understanding and practical strategies. Join us to discover how creative approaches to mental health might just provide the connection we're all seeking.

www.https://mentalhealthyfit.org/

https://mentalhealthyfit.org/focus-on-fests/

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Elevate. Every community needs champions with vision and grit. Today, we engage with those who are creating value wherever they go in the state. Hello and welcome to Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast. We are excited today to be here with Brian Higgins, who is the Executive Director of Mental Healthy FIT. Wonderful to be here with Brian Higgins, who is the Executive Director of Mental Healthy.

Speaker 2 0:26

FIT. Wonderful to be here.

Speaker 1 0:27

Yeah, thanks, brian. Mindy Young introduced us and June happens to be Men's Mental Health Awareness Month. Indeed, yes, yep. So we thought this would be a good time to connect and talk about. We talk often about women in the workplace and I thought this would be a great chance to talk about. We talk often about women in the workplace and I thought this would be a great chance to talk about men and men's mental health, which is just as important, right, but we often don't talk about. So thank you for coming on and for sharing your expertise in this area.

Speaker 2 0:55

Cool. Thank you, thanks for having me. Yeah, so yeah, it is a very important topic and we just finished with May, and May is Mental Health Awareness Month overall, and you know each month really has its own significant piece of the puzzle. You know, once we get through June for Men's Mental Health Awareness Month you know there's many different ones. April is Autism Awareness. We'll be flying right into September, no time at all. With the weather today it seems like it's October, you know, in the middle of summer, but then we get to September and it is recovery month and also suicide awareness month. So all of these things come together absolutely.

Speaker 2 1:32

For me, personally and professionally, every day is mental health awareness day. You know mental health awareness moments. You know it's great to have these months where people can, can, can shine a light on it, but really, for somebody who is dealing with mental health on a daily basis, it's mental healthy moments. You know, like the statistics is, one in five people have an official mental health diagnosis or a mental illness diagnosis and that's. You know that that's a great statistic. But I say one in one people are affected by mental health because there's nobody in this room, there's nobody outside the room, there's nobody listening to this or anywhere around the world that has not been affected by somebody with a mental health issue, and that is whether it's a family, a friend, a peer in the workplace. So everybody has had this affected them in some way. So it's a great opportunity to be able to shine the light and raise awareness and find out that it's okay to ask for help. But to give you a quick introduction, of what we do.

Speaker 1 2:48

Tell them about what you do, who you are.

Speaker 2 2:50

Yeah, so my name is Brian Higgins. You might have a bit of difficulty with my accent, but I'm not originally from here, but in podcast world I could be from anywhere. I'm from Northern Ireland originally, but I've been in the States 20 something odd years 20 something odd years and my accent has really just slowed down so people can understand me, I was going to ask, yeah.

Speaker 2 3:14

Because before or when I talk to my mates and I just revert back to the, no one has a clue, so it's all just here in the headlights. So I've slowed down, slowed down a lot and across my entire life you know, lots of things have slowed down.

Speaker 1 3:28

Age can do that.

Brian's Story & Mental Healthy FIT

Speaker 2 3:29

But I started the nonprofit officially in 2016. So that's nine years ago and it's really based on my lived experience. I like to say well, maybe I don't like to say, but I say that I went to the mental health buffet and I picked a bit from everywhere. You know, I picked a bit of PTSD, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation and addiction and all that goes with that. And you know, through a series of trials and tribulations through traditional forms of treatment, I ended up I was homeless. I was homeless for two years and actively trying to end my life through substances because I couldn't find an answer.

Speaker 2 4:16

Perceptionally, my problems were so big to me yeah, um, as everyone's problems are as big to them, um, I thought that my answer had to be just as big and I just couldn't. It was just so unattainable for me. Um, so I, you know, in all my celtic wisdom, I decided to to drink to make it go away. And you know, of course, that doesn't make the problems go away. It just made everything else in my life go away. So, uh, as I say, I ended up homeless.

Speaker 2 4:47

I was homeless for two years here in Salt Lake, um, and and that was my existence. You know, just living that that life um not seeing a way out. But I, and then, to reiterate, I had tried all the traditional forms of of therapy and therapeutic elements, but nothing would resonate with me. And so I ended up started trying to communicate more creatively, you know, to contact and connect with people, because with mental health the equity ends with the diagnosis, you know, because somebody may be diagnosed with bipolar and someone else may be diagnosed with bipolar 2. Okay, and that's a joke, because bipolar 2. Okay.

Speaker 1 5:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2 5:36

But so also be diagnosed with bipolar or depression or anxiety. But that's really where the similarities end. You know you've got a couple of words on a piece of paper and that's it where the similarities end. You know you've got a couple of words on a piece of paper and that's it, because your experience is completely different, completely opposite. You know there's going to be similarities, but really that was the struggle that I was facing with my PTSD from conflict-based PTSD, with my PTSD from conflict-based PTSD. My issues, my flashbacks, my experiences were so fantastical to the average person because of experiencing the conflicts as I did, people couldn't connect and the stigma around that, people were hesitant to want to engage with me because, again, a veteran having a flashback the stigma is you're going to go on a violent rampage, you're going to react violently, which is really not the case Most of the time, you're in the basement you know, alone Isolated.

Speaker 2 6:39

Yeah, totally, and that is the truth of the matter. You know you can't ask for help Totally, and that is the truth of the matter. You know you can't ask for help.

Speaker 1 6:51

But what?

Speaker 2 6:51

I realized was that, yes, people have not experienced what I have experienced, but if I break it down to the emotional connection, which is fear, pain, anger, joy, love, whatever the emotion is within that experience, everybody in the world has experienced that emotion, everybody in the world has experienced that emotion.

Speaker 2 7:03

So if I can creatively communicate a story based on that emotion to pull in my audience, then once I have them, then I can slip in the moral or the understanding, say, hey, the fear you're experiencing now from that horror story or whatever, or the joy, whatever that is my addiction, you know, that is the emotions that I feel, that I find a place where they can relate.

Speaker 2 7:29

Yeah, yeah and then people can connect and uh, and I found it's been very beneficial over the years to do it that way, because people are more inclined to engage creatively, uh, rather than, you know, analytically, or if it's doom and gloom, because, again, mental health is perceived as doom and gloom. You, know.

Speaker 1 7:48

So I have a question. So when you talked about connection and how, sometimes if you have a diagnosis, or if people know your diagnosis or you share it, then are you saying that that kind of felt like it became the totality of who you were to people? And so it was harder to connect because they might not have that experience.

Speaker 2 8:07

Well, to an extent there was a lot of discrimination, you know from professionally and personally, and that people were hesitant because they had their other ideas of what that meant, or bias.

Speaker 1 8:20

We'll just call it biases.

Speaker 2 8:22

Yeah, or, you know, maybe they had a completely negative connection with another experience, so they're hesitant to get involved because you know, and those things aren't usually surface level Yep.

Speaker 1 8:38

So if you're asking someone to connect and go through that, they're pretty honest conversations.

Speaker 2 8:42

Totally, Totally. And you know, mental health can be hereditary, but it's not contagious. I feel like that is worth re-saying yes, Well okay, mental health can be hereditary, but it is not contagious.

Speaker 2 8:59

It's not contagious and people treat it as it's contagious. You know, we look at the issues that we're experiencing, not just in Salt Lake, but in Berlin, in London, in Paris and everywhere around the world is the homeless issue and the difficulty is because people won't look at the humanity. You know they won't make eye contact and just ask you know how are you doing, you know how can we help. You know there's that, you know, brick wall. It's sort of placed. It's yeah, it's us and them, yeah, because of the contagious elements.

Creative Communication for Mental Health

Speaker 1 9:33

Oh, stay away from me, I don't want to catch what I feel like that's a very human element too, right, the us versus them. When I feel like, because we talk about politics here, we talk about the workplace, we talk about all kinds of things that feed into really like helping each other show up as our best so we all can thrive wherever we are. But when we get to that binary space, when it has to be this way or this way, I feel like that hurts people, no matter what the topic is we're talking about. Right? I think that is very when when we're reductionist, because people are complex in so many levels and sometimes we can't handle the complexity even of our own selves, let alone other people.

Speaker 2 10:15

Indeed. So what I did when I started the program. So the FIT stands for Films, ideas and Tips. Stands for films, ideas and tips. Yeah, so we work with youth of all ages, which is wonderful demographic, and we help people tell their, their stories through creative communication. You know, the aim is to make a film about it. But, again, not everyone can make a film. But film is the team, team, team, sport, okay, and we can all connect and we can all create this, this singular vision based on the emotion that we're looking at. So then we take those little films and they're all shorts and then we travel around to schools or corporate centers or community centers and we show them and we can create conversations.

Speaker 2 11:00

You know, create the conversations around that film yeah because creativity is so subjective that it can mean anything to everyone right and you can take whatever level you're at from it. Yeah, and then you can have a conversation. It's not the be all and end all.

Speaker 2 11:14

It's not mathematics where, like two plus two equals four and nothing else um, it can be a different interpretation and it's great within film or music or art. You know people are inclined to have those conversations and to accept someone else's opinion. Yeah, you know thoughts. You know. Tell me what you think about this.

Speaker 1 11:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:39

This modern art piece is oh, I think it looks like a butterfly.

Speaker 1 11:42

Well, I think it looks like Because it's a bit more abstract. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 11:44

And it's oh, I can actually see that that's incredible, but nothing else in the world is like that.

Speaker 1 11:49

It's like, and especially in the and like, when, like I think with my kids, right, when kids are really little and we're playing, or we look up at the sky and say what is that cloud? Oh, you see a dinosaur-choo train, right, but we lose that element somehow when we, when we grow up, many of us. So I love this idea of connecting to the creativity yep, because then we can see what we want totally, and that kind of opens us up. Yep, yeah, and it allows us to communicate.

Speaker 2 12:17

You know, when people are more inclined to engage with us, then, you know, tell me what you did, show me what, what this means to you. Um, so then we have that and the ideas are the ideas of the conversation, and then the tips are the actual resources that we, that we provide. You know, hey, you know we're non-clinical, non-diagnostic, but we are partnered with all of the, the clinical resources so that people can get the help if they need yeah, to move on to to that.

Speaker 2 12:44

So, as I say, we've been going since 2016, officially from the nonprofit status and we've just been building and doing what we're doing and people love it, you know, and it's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 12:59

So one thing that I love and that I find really fascinating because I love people's origin stories is that you saw need right, None of these other things worked for you and you had a need and so you built something and now it not only benefits you but benefits all the people who come in who might have that same need. Right, that is a solid business model and I would love you to um. So if someone came in for help, first of all, are they referred by? Like, their mental, like, how do they?

Speaker 2 13:29

know, find you they. They can come from referrals. Normally we're we're going to places that has the need, you know. So when we're going to treatment centers we're offering expressive recovery through treatment centers. So that that's really where the referrals come from, in that standpoint. But it's open to the public. Anybody who wants to be involved can come and be involved, just going on the website and seeing where our programs are. But most of our stuff is, I'll say, the workshops and the programs are semi-private.

Speaker 2 14:07

Okay, because they are being brought in by organizations right so we're going to treatment centers or we're going to shelters or we're going to uh places that or schools and things like that or corporate settings will bring us in. And then the, the fully public side are the showcase of the presentations and the workshops and stuff. So that's how people get involved.

Speaker 1 14:32

And then will you walk me through the process of what this might look like. So if I said, hey, I'm really interested in this. I have some things I'm working through. I'd love to do this creatively, what might be the process for that?

Speaker 2 14:48

Well, you would contact me or contact us on the website, and then we would kind of place you in a group setting, because they're all group connected ones. We do have individual little pieces that people can do by themselves. I have different books and things that people can interact with them. So this is specifically the art for mental health and it gives you prompts.

The Stigma of Mental Health Disclosure

Speaker 2 15:13

So this one, like self-reflection. Divide the page into two sections detailing the following what traits do you like about yourself, what would you like to change and how do you see yourself with others? And then we have space that you can do little worksheets. So these are more individual things that you can do. Like about yourself, what would you like to change and how do you see yourself with others? And then we have space that you can, yeah, little worksheets. So these are more individual things that you can do. Um, but if you were wanting to do one of the, the larger projects, to make a film, you know it would be a, it would be a group setting, um, but mostly that would have to be through a, an organization that you were connected with, so so you could maybe contact your HR or your clinical director and ask for us to come in.

Speaker 1 15:49

Okay, so Jackie Zahner with SheMoney she helps women interact with money and gain financial empowerment, and I was asking the question because at her summit last year she actually had people tell their money stories and then make films out of them. And just sitting in the audience and watching them, I was like I don't have any money issues, right? Well, of course I have some, but I know what they are. But sitting watching the films of other people's stories, I was just crying in the back because it hit me in a way that I'd never thought about before and brought up all these new things that I'm like, wow, this, this and this right to my awareness.

Speaker 1 16:27

So I think there is such power in this type of medium and in creativity and I'm wondering, you know, it's interesting because I feel like we're at this place, especially in the workforce, where lifestyle and mental health and things that used to be like I went to work and then I went home and they were very separate or people wanted them to be very separate. They're not separate anymore and I think that a lot of companies are having a hard time with that. What do they do with people in their workforce who might have a challenge, that they don't know what to do with. Does that mean that I have to like counsel them in my office? How do I do with people in their workforce who might have a challenge that they don't know what to do with? Does that mean that I have to like counsel them in my office? How do I do? What does that mean for me to integrate those more fully and take the stigma out of it? So, from your perspective, what might that look like for business people?

Speaker 2 17:20

Well, it's very important to provide a psychologically safe workspace.

Speaker 1 17:23

Yes, and would you explain what that means a little bit for those who don't know.

Speaker 2 17:30

It's a space where everyone feels safe to be listened to, to be heard, to not be bullied, to not be intimidated, to be an important piece of the puzzle and to be comfortable in asking for accommodations that may be needed and not to be discriminated against and things like that.

Speaker 1 17:50

Right, if you ask, then you're going to lose your job. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 17:53

Yeah, and we can get into the legalities of self-disclosure and stuff like that, but really all of these things.

Speaker 2 18:01

It's kind of changed even more now that we've got hybrid working models, where people are working remote or people are working fully remotely or people are in the office and it's, you know, it's there's so many uncharted water elements that we're moving into at the moment. So I kind of find, like people who are in the office, now it's a ghost town, you know, a lot of the time maybe three people there and it's just not that vibrant space as it was before.

Speaker 2 18:30

I do miss that and and even though you may be in the office, you're still isolating, you know. Or if you're at home, you're isolating, it's just. It's just. It's just a completely different world that we're moving into. And even though we've kind of been in this for five years, we're just beginning.

Speaker 1 18:47

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 18:48

Who knows what will what. What things will will will present themselves. But in order to do these things, the positive goal that really has to happen is it has to happen from the top down. You know the C-suites have to embrace. You know these things which can be difficult because generational elements. You know the difficult because generational elements. You know the generational CEO who's been in the corner office for 30 years.

Speaker 1 19:26

You know it feels like expressing if they need help. It's a weakness, yep, which, first of all, what's wrong with a weakness? It doesn't mean they have to mean anything except you're human. Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that. Yeah, it's just, it's a with a weakness Doesn't mean they have to mean anything except you're human.

Speaker 2 19:40

Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that, yeah, it's just, it's a problem to be solved, you know. And to be vulnerable enough to stand up in front of your team or your staff or your company and say, hey, you know, I couldn't sleep last night because of anxiety, my head was rolling last night because of anxiety, my head was was rolling, uh, and not specifically because of work related things, but to be vulnerable enough and say, hey, my, my, uh, my, my children are having, are struggling at, in university, whatever, like all of these things, as you say, the work-life balance, that does, you know, uh, jump over and so for the, for the, the big bosses, to be vulnerable enough, you know to to be that way, you know. And and another element that we're hitting, especially in the entrepreneurial world, is is the grind. Oh, you gotta do the grind work. I'm working.

Speaker 2 20:33

70 hours a week and what's that doing for you doing is burning you out, you know.

Speaker 1 20:39

It is kind of a culture of that, though, right.

Speaker 2 20:42

And it's like well, if I'm not doing that, then I'm failing, you know, or I'm going to be discriminated against because I'm not staying behind, and that's not the best either. You know, there's one of the aholics is certainly workaholic, you know, and and it's just socially OK to be a workaholic, but an alcoholic, that's a whole different thing, totally.

Speaker 2 21:09

And and it you're. You're not just your life suffers, but your family's life suffers, like all of these other elements suffer. Not just your life suffers, but your family's life suffers, like all of these other elements suffer. If you're at the grind, you know, and really, are you being efficient with your time? Are you being productive? You know, because if you're being tired, are you making too many mistakes? So that's why you have to work later because you didn't get the sleep. So providing a good example of that, like taking your lunch break and inviting people, say, let's go for a walk around the park.

Speaker 1 21:42

I love that because what you just said about you might be at work but you might be isolating at work, so maybe you take lunch. But an even better step is to sometimes I said that for you introverts sometimes gather people with you, right?

Speaker 2 21:56

Yeah, like even go for a walk in a group and you can all listen to your own headphones. I love that. But that element of showing hey, I'm going for lunch, you come with me, that okay, well, I can, so I can actually take my lunch break, you know, because a lot of people will be stuck and say oh, the boss, or my supervisor, never takes lunch Right so I don't want to, because the minute I leave they're going to be like I need something, yeah.

Speaker 1 22:21

Yeah, we talk a lot here about the and and. If people want to like, if they're doing a startup and they have to work 80 hours a week for two years, I'm okay with that. What I think we need to give more space to is not everybody does it that way. Not everybody wants to do it that way. Not every personality or family can manage it that way. So it's got to be like instead of just red, there's all kinds of colors right, all kinds of ways to paint it. Why do you think we resist that so much as people Resist.

Speaker 1 22:59

Meaning, like it seems to make sense, that we're all not the same, we all shouldn't be expected to be the same and we should all just be able to show up and be ourselves. But we don't.

Speaker 2 23:09

There's a lot of resistance.

Speaker 1 23:11

What have you found to be the case?

Speaker 2 23:21

I have an analogy on that from a perspective of you know the jungle or the forest. You know that everything in the jungle serves a purpose. Everything is there, from the moss on the rock to the tiger or the monkey, whatever. They're all there just to live in this perfect ecological system that serves each other.

The LEAP Method for Connection

Speaker 2 23:39

And as humans, as people, we're the same. We're still just animals. You know, everyone has a natural talent that is just within them either to be the leader, the CEO, or to be the introvert, creative, you know, or to be the caregiver the caregiver, you know. All of these things have to work in, in symmetry, to be able to provide the greatest ecosystem for whatever we're trying to do. And when people say, oh, I just don't know what I want to do with my life, you know, you really do. You know, if you sit, if you sit down and thought about what do I like? That's what? Okay, I like that because I'm good at it.

Speaker 2 24:24

So if I just put all my energy into this, then I'm going to be the best at making quilts or whatever it is. You know, and that's a needed skill, because nature has kind of made that that you are that piece Sure skill. Because nature has kind of made that you are that piece, sure, um. But unfortunately the world has kind of evolved to not look at that way. You know, everybody wants to be a rock star.

Speaker 2 24:53

You know I'm not a youtube influencer yeah, not an entrepreneurial rock star, just you're a rock star, coder or whatever, like a genuine people because of American Idol people and again we look at that side of things. You know people look at well, I could be a rock star, I could be a pop star and make all this money and just be, but the work involved to do that is still hardcore. Yes, work involved to do that is still hardcore.

Speaker 2 25:22

Yes, so if we could all just understand that we all fit a perfect piece of the puzzle and then work out how to put those pieces together, then we would make a beautiful picture. But unfortunately, people want to be what they're not, you know, and that's where the whether it's been instilled from them, from peripheral pressure, you know, from familial pressure or community pressure, you know. But if people could, you know, sit down and just think, hey, I don't want to be a CEO.

Speaker 1 25:54

I just want to.

Speaker 2 25:56

I want to ride my mountain bike. Great, go and ride your mountain bike and find a way, you know, because you're always going to find a way about something you're passionate about. The only way you're going to find something that you're not passionate about is burnout, you know, and resentment.

Speaker 1 26:15

It's a lot of self-acceptance. We had a woman on hereion johnson, dr dion johnson, who talked about a moment in her life where she realized she had to take off her super cape right. Sometimes learning is unlearning all the things and just sitting down and being like okay, let's get back to what do I want? Who am? Am I Right? What are my strengths? What, what are the things I need to either have someone help me with or work on and focus on that. Like I feel like we get so distracted in so many other things that that very basic human concept gets lost a lot, and people are craving that, I think.

Speaker 2 26:56

Yep. Yeah yeah, yeah. So the the two hardest questions that that I try to help people ask is I don't know when I need help. And it's all fine and dandy when we can be vulnerable enough to ask those questions, yeah, but the problem is the community doesn't know how to answer them.

Speaker 1 27:14

Um and there's nothing worse than saying I need help and just having silence or people like, well, what do you want me to do? And you're like I don't know, but I know I need help. Yeah.

Speaker 2 27:23

And it's um, and especially in the mental health world, that that is the, that is the oh, stay away from me, you know, and uh, and so it's a, it's a, it's a twofold question because, you know, I have to teach people, inspire people and motivate people to ask the questions, but then I have to inspire and motivate everyone else to know how to answer the questions.

Speaker 1 27:44

Yeah, because, like in a workplace, what if someone who you know you're their manager and they come to you and they disclose something and they say I need help or I'm going through this? You're going to be like what, what do I do with that? What? What do I want to do with that? What do I do with that? What do I want to do with that? What do I legally have to do with that?

Speaker 2 28:00

All those kind of things and within that realm, in the workplace it is not. You do not have to disclose, there's no legal ability that you have to disclose, so it's all personal preference. If you choose to disclose, then that's when the legalities come in, because then you can't be discriminated against, you can't. You know, accommodations have to be provided. You can't be fired.

Speaker 2 28:28

So know the law too if you're going to, yes, but those elements because of the community, the stigma involved, like officially all these things can't happen. But there can still be the way, people, it can still be. Oh, that's why you're always late, you know.

Speaker 1 28:48

And then it becomes a thing.

Speaker 2 28:50

Yes, and then it can become while your work is falling down and you're not necessarily getting discriminated against because you disclosed that you got anxiety is falling down, um, and you're not necessarily getting discriminated against because you disclosed that you got anxiety, um. So it's kind of like a it's, it is. It's just, it's still a difficult fine line to to, to tap, dance across. Yeah, uh, because certainly in my day, like I've, I've disclosed, I'm, I'm very open, uh, it's very difficult because people just Google me and they'll see. You know I can't get away from it, but I certainly have been discriminated against, you know, in the workplace and in personal interactions as well. So it's a fine line to move across.

Speaker 1 29:35

It is a fine line. Mental flexibility, I think, is huge here too, right, like I think that's part of mental health is the ability to be flexible, and it's it could be all about you and what you just said and it could have nothing to do with you, and both of those can be true, right, in different situations. Yeah, so so many ways that this intersects with so much of what we talk about, right, just humanity, creativity, leadership, the workplace, just building community in general. Yep, what else do you want to? What else do you want to tell listeners?

Speaker 2 30:11

You know, if you're struggling, it's okay, it's okay. There are many things that you can do to move forward. You know we have many. I've talked about these. These are thinkalopes that I developed specifically for homeless youth, but they do work across everybody. But originally I developed them with homeless youth down in salt lake because of the digital equity uh, because they are still going to school, you know, but they may not have the newest device so there was a lot of clicks and a lot of uh, difficulties of them being able to feel part of the school.

Speaker 2 30:53

Um, there's many other things within the stigma of again, because teenagers can be terrible and all of these programs as far as like the, uh, the, the provided lunch programs and things, it's still segregating. You know it's still so. A lot of people don't take advantage of these programs because it's still segregates.

Speaker 1 31:16

Because then people will know, yeah, and even if they know, they might not know what to do, which makes it worse sometimes.

Speaker 2 31:21

Indeed, indeed. So we developed these so that people could have something that was cooler than an iPhone.

Speaker 1 31:29

Okay, you know Okay.

Speaker 2 31:31

And so they're called Thinkalopes and you open them up and they provide inside. You can see if we can have the camera. But there's 50 tips that can help produce serotonin in the moment. Okay, you know, and they're not, they're kind of called band-aid fixes. They'll help you in the moment.

Speaker 1 31:49

You're not going to.

Speaker 2 31:49

they're not going to heal, you know. But but if you're feeling down or feeling a little bit of a struggle, like you, can just open these up and then just pick any number and we can Just give me a number between 1 and 50.

Speaker 1 32:01

Okay, let's do 25.

Speaker 2 32:02

Okay, 25. Keep a smile file. Okay so tell me what. Give me three things that would be in your smile file.

Speaker 1 32:10

Things that make me smile. Yeah, Ooh, good conversations Okay, Sunset on the patio with my kids and walking conversations sunset on the patio with my kids and walking barefoot in the grass Cool.

Speaker 2 32:18

And those are all things that you can look forward to. So, no matter what your bad day is happening or what's on the air, well there's, I've got these things to look forward to, so give me another number.

Speaker 1 32:26

Okay, let's do 14.

Speaker 2 32:28

14. Have a nap.

Speaker 1 32:30

Oh, I feel really good about that one.

Speaker 2 32:34

Yeah, so it's just all these cool little things that are available.

Speaker 1 32:38

And good reminders, right? Because, like you said, sometimes your problem gets so big that it's nice to be like. No, it doesn't have to be that big yeah.

Speaker 2 32:45

Because, as I mentioned at the start, my perceived problem, was massive to me, so I thought my answer had to be just as big. But in the end my answer was a banana, which is so ridiculous, but the creative concept of what a banana is is what my answer was. But it wasn't my full answer. It was enough. It was my answer to be able to take another step forward and take another step forward and take another step forward. But all of these things will help produce serotonin and give you that boost to feel better.

Speaker 1 33:16

In the moment to help you move forward, To move forward.

Speaker 2 33:19

And then on the back we've got the butterfly hug, which is an EMDR technique to help with anxiety and stress, got sensory focus, and then leap and I love leap. Have you ever heard of leap before? So L-E-A-P it's a great way that we can help each other. So leap stands for listen, e is empathize, A is agree and P is partner. So again, just back when we started, we talked about the equity of mental health. You know, people don't have the same experience. It doesn't matter about mental health, it doesn't matter about anything. No one has the same experience. People's experience in marriage is completely different than that. Everyone's experience's experience is different. Um, so leap can work for that you know.

Workplace Mental Health Strategies

Speaker 2 34:02

So either we can go through life with our blinkers on, so don't talk to me, I'm on my way, you've got nothing to do with me to stay away, or we can, you know, try to integrate. So we can l listen, I'm going to listen to your story, you know, um, I'm gonna, and then I'm going to empathize because, ok, I don't know what, I've got no connection to what you just went through or anything, but I believe that I know that it is true for you, the thing that you are experiencing is true for you. So I can empathetically feel what that must be like. So then I can agree, a I can agree that, yes, this is a bad situation, you know, for you, and then I can, we can partner, let's partner together to move forward. And if any of those things don't exist together, it doesn't work. You know. So, if we stick our fingers in our ears and don't listen to people, if we're not empathetic for people, if we don't agree with people in their situation.

Speaker 2 35:05

We can't partner, we can't move forward, and then the person that we're trying to help, they're not going to be, they're not going to look at you as a partner, yeah, as a helpful guide. They're going to be well, you don't? Oh, stay away from me, so it's. So leap is a great is a great thing. And then I also like it because it helps us, like we're leaping to help each other that creativity.

Speaker 1 35:25

I love it. If you were listening to this. He's got all kinds of pamphlets, folders. They're all very colorful, um, interactive. Uh, I like leap a lot and I want to just talk through it a little bit. So listening it interesting.

Speaker 1 35:40

I did a master's degree in communication and active listening is like much of our day, right, just like body languages. But very few people have skills in active listening until you actually are like, oh, what does this mean? Am I listening to someone or am I formulating my next thoughts Right? So I love that part about listening, the empathy part. I love what you said of that. Might not be my experience, but I believe that's true for you and I remember how powerful it was for me. When I was going through a really rough time, my friend came. She like she wanted to know what went on, what was happening with me, but then, after we went through all that, she just looked at me and said I believe you and I can't tell you how healing that was for me. I knew she didn't understand fully and that it wasn't her experience, but that she believed that it was my experience, was like an amazing gift.

Speaker 1 36:40

So then, the A Agreed LEA. I'm like, how do you spell LEAP?

Speaker 1 36:44

Then the A is agree, which we all don't have to have the same worldview to be friends, like that's so important. And then P to partner, like what do we do together, how do I help you, how do you help me, how do we continue this? Or maybe it's just a one conversation. Whatever that looks like, I think that is, if there's a golden nugget here that we've talked about so far that people can apply today in a relationship or a friendship or whatever. I think that that would be, that would be it.

Speaker 2 37:13

Yeah, yeah, and it's such a simple thing, such a simple thing to write, remember, and it's just about putting it into, into, and it's such a simple thing, such a simple thing to remember, and it's just about putting it into action and knowing that maybe the first time you do a leap, it doesn't work out like you thought it might, and that's okay to do it again, right? Indeed. So the blue ones are the 50 tips, and then I developed these ones specifically for high school kids. These are fun, but these are yellow.

Speaker 1 37:41

And it's truth. Or dare self-care, oh dear, uh, so it's just the same.

Speaker 2 37:43

Okay, let's do truth or dare, then go ahead well, do I want to do truth or dare?

Speaker 1 37:47

is this okay? What am I getting myself into?

Speaker 2 37:51

so go ahead, pick a number uh, they're one to 20.

Speaker 1 37:53

Well, one to 25, there's 25. Okay, let's do four.

Speaker 2 37:57

What is challenging you. Truth and the dare is something different.

Speaker 1 38:03

Really Okay. How about 11?

Speaker 2 38:08

11 what are you afraid of? And the counterpart is go and watch the sunset. But other elements are like volunteer. What motivates you? How are you truly feeling? And tell someone how you're feeling, you know, I think that one's a great one because you know to truthfully say how you're feeling and then truthfully tell someone right, you know um, not sugarcoat it, yeah, um, there's another one. I spend time with a plant 28 days with sandra bullock.

Speaker 1 38:47

Yep, did you ever watch that?

Speaker 2 38:49

yep, yep, yep um take a 30 minute vacation.

Speaker 1 38:54

So so these are all cool, all very doable.

Speaker 2 38:57

Yeah, and these are set up so they're business card size so you can carry them around with you, and they're nice and tactile. We've also just launched the MH Fit Tips and it's an acronym, so M stands for manage your mindset, h is help yourself and others, f is find balance I invest in self-carecare and T is talk about it. So lots of just little cool, just ideas and thought processes that you can. You can take a wee moment like a mental healthy moment and reconnect with what, what, what really matters and how to move forward.

Speaker 1 39:31

And I'm sure that with this, like with most things, it would be beneficial to do them on yourself right. To do them on yourself, to practice getting really good with them as well as with other people. So I have a couple questions I want to ask you. The first one is say you're going through a leap and you're just being there with someone. What if I'm like a manager or a leader and I'm doing this for my team? At what point do you say this is beyond my scope?

Speaker 2 39:59

As soon as it's beyond your scope.

Speaker 1 40:01

Really, and so. I guess it's self-awareness of like knowing what's beyond your scope.

Speaker 2 40:06

And a lot of corporations these days are going to have very specific elements Policies. You know, because when you self-disclose, like if you're having trouble with a workplace and you're and you're communicating, so this, this, my workload is too much for me and I'm stressed out, you know that's not necessarily disclosing a mental health issue. You know you're saying, hey, I'm just burnt out and I'm and it's causing me. You know situational you could use the anxiety because, again, mental health there's, many, there's, there's right there's clinical, there's situational um, and situational stuff is that.

Speaker 2 40:39

You know, I'm just too much on my plate you know I'm struggling to keep up, uh, which is causing me anxiety anxiety uh, but it's not clinical anxiety right you know right.

Speaker 2 40:49

So that's not really a disclosure of like I need an accommodation within that kind of disclosure. So then then then your, your supervisor, might okay. Well, that's who can, who can ease the workload. You know how can we move this, can we move the timeline Stuff like that, when it's a genuine, you know, when it's an actual mental illness element you know and does it have to be diagnosed in order to be an actual like in a workplace?

Speaker 2 41:13

Does it have to be diagnosed in order to be an actual like in a workplace, in order to get the you know you have the, the accommodations, yeah, the accommodations of time off and things like that.

Speaker 2 41:24

A lot of places are going to have accommodations, you know, and try to help you out. But if you, you will need you know doctor's official thing to get up to three months off. Okay, you know, and in that level you've got to be talking to HR and stuff and that's when they're going to take it over and they're going to have their I gotcha and there's all like HIPAA laws and confidentiality.

Speaker 1 41:44

So when you're ready to disclose or you need to disclose, you need to think about who you disclose to.

Speaker 2 41:48

Yes, yeah, like you could be talking to your friend when you're out for a walk. You know, and that's difficult because you know loose lips sink ships. Yeah, you don't know who, the terminology that people are using, and things like that. Like kids say everything is gaslighting.

Speaker 1 42:24

Mom. You're gaslighting me and I'm like I don't think that is being used the right way.

Speaker 2 42:29

Relating is an interesting term because it came from a film like in the 1920s 1930s, so it's not a real medical term, but the concept is certainly there. So you know a lot of it can kind of disparage and take away the people that are truly suffering when people are using these terminologies. I am very conscious of my words and stuff that I use and I try to educate people around me not to specifically be using those types of words because they can. You know there's all these other words, yes, that we shouldn't use, that are within the knowledge that people know, fine, rightly, they shouldn't use it. And to somebody that is suffering, you know they can be just as damaging and just as heavy. So we just have to be conscious on what we're doing. I used to run a film festival called Labeled Fest, Okay, and it was trying to turn negative labels into positive labels.

Speaker 1 43:44

Okay.

Speaker 2 43:45

And it was kind of like hi, my name is whatever.

Speaker 1 43:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2 43:48

But the difficulty with that is we had to talk about the negative labels to bring up the positive Right. So we were kind of educating people of how to be you know, give you know and making people aware. Oh, so this is how I can be offensive, this is how I can, you know, say things. You're like oh, no, I'm the right person.

Speaker 1 44:08

I was trying to teach.

Speaker 2 44:09

But it's just not good to label people, and especially in the workplace. It's just such a difficult situation. But you know, if you do disclose, accommodations do have to be made. The legalities are there, the accommodations do have to be provided and it's just a fine line. It's difficult because if you are suffering from anxiety and depression, you know, suddenly having it all out in the open, you know, and then people tiptoeing around you and for everyone to interpret what that means for you.

Speaker 2 44:41

Yeah, that can just cause a lot more problems. So it's, as I say, two hardest questions is I don't know and I need help. But the big issue is that the community doesn't know how to answer that how to answer it. And until we get to that point, it's still going to be a slippery slope, a slippery slope in Silicon Slopes.

Speaker 1 45:03

That's where we are right now. Okay, so tell me, when are your festivals? Is it like a certain time of year, or just when you get enough films, or what does that look like?

Speaker 2 45:12

We do, we try to try to well, we do them once every quarter, okay, and they're traveling, they're, they're pop-up festivals, um and traveling throughout the state, the yeah they, yeah, throughout utah, the, the in-person ones, we do go. If there's enough budget, there's enough funding, we can travel. But again, the beauty of everyone's used to streaming now, so we can, you know, provide the streaming content. But again, the beauty of everyone's used to streaming now, so we can provide the streaming content. But again, the beauty of this is the interactive.

Speaker 1 45:38

The community.

Speaker 2 45:38

Yeah, and the in-person stuff. Because I as a speaker and a communicator and presenter, I can be fully prepared that I'm going to be doing psychologically safe workspace or vulnerability in the workspace and that's my presentation. But as soon as I walk in the room and hit my first slide and then I can, oh, I can feel that it's a different thing going on here and this this person in the front row is is struggling, and then I can just completely change to be okay, let's let's, let's change the content so you read rooms pretty well totally

Speaker 2 46:12

because you have to and and and and the. The positive benefit is the feedback afterwards of when people come up and say, hey, you know this is, I didn't even want to come today, but I was forced. I was forced, something within me brought me here, and now I know why. Because you know, now I can move forward, so things like that. And that's where we just can't get in the streaming. You know I can be on a screen, you know, and everyone can have their cameras off. You know, it just doesn't work. So we do try to do the in-person stuff more than the virtual stuff. But once a quarter we'll travel around and our 100% always in the same spot is in May for Mental Health Awareness Month, and that's called Focus on Fests.

Speaker 1 46:53

Okay, we just missed it.

Speaker 2 46:55

Yep, and the next one, big one like that, will be in September for recovery and suicide awareness.

Speaker 1 47:01

Okay.

Speaker 2 47:07

But throughout, you know, if there are companies out there, any corporations that want me to come in, we'll come in and we'll do a lunch and learn and do a mini pop-up festival.

Speaker 1 47:12

Okay, so tell them the couple topics you talked about Vulnerability, what are the couple topics that a company could hire you to come in and do? And then, if they said, yes, we want you to come in and do a pop-up, what might that look like?

Speaker 2 47:24

Okay, Well, our workplace program is called Mental Healthy Works and we cover a multitude of topics. So, psychologically, providing a psychologically safe workspace, vulnerability from the top down, preventing burnouts. We also help people know what a mental health day is what I'm not going fishing how to take a mental health day and, most importantly, how and why to a mental health day and, most importantly, is how and why to give mental health days.

Speaker 1 47:59

You know that's a great topic so those are our topics.

The Biology of Stress Response

Speaker 2 48:02

You know they're kind of tailored. You know you can come in and we can chop and change and mix and match, or we can just be, you know, a deep dive on one specific thing. We can do specific ones for, you know just c-suites, or we can do an open house lunch and learn type thing. But they're all great. We provide the films, people can interact with the films. We also have cool escape rooms, escape boxes and things like that that people can interact with. So it's certainly not doom and gloom, it's not a standard.

Speaker 1 48:34

Because with bias training, people are like, oh, I don't want to go, but it doesn't have to be that way and the same with, like that, mental health. We're getting back to the stigma question, right, it doesn't have to be like depressing Totally.

Speaker 2 48:46

Yeah, there's no doom and gloom. It's just it's not like sitting learning about a standard HR policy type thing. It's a cool experience, but if anybody's interested, they can contact us on the website on mentalhealthyfitorg. Follow the dropdowns and you'll be able to bring us in.

Speaker 1 49:08

Perfect, so we didn't talk about this beforehand, but I am starting to learn a lot about vagus nerve.

Speaker 2 49:17

Okay.

Speaker 1 49:18

And when you talked about serotonin, the ability, like sometimes you know, to shut down, to recover. And sometimes it's getting out of that shutdown or maybe it's too hyper stimulated and then to like come back from that.

Speaker 2 49:32

What's your understanding of that, or what is something that people can take away and learn from that as far as mental health, Yep, well it's, it's really, it's a leftover in evolution from when we were all cave people, you know, and we have to have all of these additional body chemicals to survive, you know. So it's so, it's fight or flight. And then there's another.

Speaker 1 49:57

F, which is freeze.

Speaker 2 49:59

Like I'm very much a freeze. You know, pretend to be dead and I'll leave my own. You know, which again is burnout overload. You know I can't get off the couch. You know, I'm just.

Speaker 1 50:08

Yeah, I'm basically dead. I'm not procrastinating, I'm really like out of it. Yeah. I am completely, I am completely dead until the perceived threat, threat dissipates and which, if it's your job, that's, that's a real consideration, because you you're not going to get away from your job unless you get off the couch and do something.

Speaker 2 50:27

Indeed, um. So you know, it's specifically cortisol, is the, is the chemical that that is is causing us overload, and it is, you know, when we have conflict confusion you know, because back in the days, you know, we hear a sound. You know, oh, what is that? Is that a dinosaur or something?

Speaker 1 50:49

Is that a threat? You know?

Speaker 2 50:50

give me all the cortisol so I can get away. Get away. Another thing that I have difficulty with is in that situation when the perceived threat and the conflict, confusion is, your eyes open wider to let in more light, because you got to see, you got to be able to see Interesting. So when I get hit with that, you know my eyes are like full on cartoon eyes. You know where the eyes are popping out and I cannot close them. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's something that it's a real biological like response.

Speaker 1 51:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:22

And uh, and you know my I, it's just a thing I got to deal with, um, but the cortisol that then floods, you know it's like release the cortisol, um, you know in me like I can feel it like a tap, you know, and it's coming from your psoasis muscle and your psoasis muscle is at your tailbone your spine, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 51:45

And there are certain exercises that you can do to exercise to strengthen your psoasis muscle, so kind of like a lot of leg lifts and things like that, and I can stimulate my psoas muscle now pretty effectively.

Speaker 2 52:02

So when a trigger occurs and I can feel the cortisol, starting to pour out, as I say it's like a tap that just gets turned on and my body is flooded, because you're aware of it. Yeah, but I can now react and tense my psoas muscle to strain the flow of the cortisol. But again, once it happens, you don't have a choice because you're going to be in that fight or flight mode and, depending how much cortisol is released, that's just the length of time you're just going to have to deal in this heightened state, which doesn't help because all it is.

Speaker 2 52:38

It's just a heightened state. It's not going to. You're going to make all the mistakes, you're not going to be able to string sentences together, and it's just. It's just, it's just a hard thing to to deal with. So so for me personally you know it's all about the swastika muscle- you know, and just tensing it and doing exercises, because that has been a real difficult thing. The conflict, confusion you know, because, even though I can be consciously aware of hey, I'm not in trouble, this is just a simple thing. There is no dinosaur.

Speaker 1 53:11

Right, you know, subconscious doesn't know the difference Totally. There is no dinosaur, right, you know, subconscious doesn't know the difference Totally.

Speaker 2 53:15

And then, and it's just no matter what I can, no matter how consciously aware I am of the situation, your body is just it's subconscious sabotage.

Speaker 1 53:24

It's just deal with it and be aware. Yeah.

Speaker 2 53:27

And so good.

Speaker 1 53:28

Yeah, Um, okay, I love. If you've never met Brian, I highly you should take him out to lunch, you should bring him into your corporation. He is, for me, a breath of fresh air table, which I really appreciate, and I think that especially in our communities many of our communities here in Utah we could use with a healthy dose of that Looking forward, both in our communities and as a state, perhaps policy. If you could just say pie in the sky, something that you would really hope for our state in the next three to five years, or our communities, what would that look like?

Speaker 2 54:18

The vulnerability from the top down. You know and you know, just truthful vulnerability Number one, right there, truthfully, how are you feeling and tell someone?

Speaker 1 54:31

That's such a liability.

Speaker 2 54:33

It is not.

Speaker 1 54:35

I'm like for a politician, that seems like a big liability. No, no, but maybe that's my own mindset. There you go.

Hope for Community Healing

Speaker 2 54:42

But it's because of their. You know they've got to be. They're not. You know they've got to be vulnerable. You know they've got to be vulnerable. They've got to show that because then it makes them real, you know, and approachable. And you know we've got to learn how to work together. We've got to leap together.

Speaker 2 55:08

Yeah, that whole like jungle analogy that you said, like we can't, we've got to leap. All these hurdles that are ahead of us, all these hurdles that are right now. We've got to leap. With all these hurdles that are ahead of us, all these hurdles that are right now, we've got to leap together to get over them, to leap over the hurdles.

Speaker 1 55:17

Okay, so as far as the state, what about the communities that are being built in Utah? What is something you would hope for?

Speaker 2 55:22

communities you know treat everyone with respect, like make eye contact. You know make eye contact and learn about each other. You know put your hand across the divide and and say hello.

Speaker 1 55:41

So simple but so profound. Yeah Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today for sharing, for your work um and for helping us learn just how to be more human.

Speaker 2 55:54

Thank you very much, thank you.