Breaking Free: The Hidden Cost of Perfectionism

What if the very shield we create to protect ourselves from judgment is the same barrier preventing our most meaningful connections? In this thought-provoking conversation with Alysha Turner, business development professional and host of the Popping Perfectionism podcast, we explore the hidden costs of perfectionism in our professional and personal lives.

Perfectionism isn't just about high standards—it's about the harsh self-criticism that follows when we inevitably fall short. Drawing from Brené Brown's research and her own experiences, Alysha unpacks how perfectionism functions as a shield against vulnerability while simultaneously blocking authentic connection and growth. She shares her personal journey through divorce, revealing how embracing vulnerability rather than hiding behind perfection ultimately led to deeper relationships and greater resilience.

The workplace manifestation of perfectionism—imposter syndrome—affects professionals across industries but disproportionately impacts women in male-dominated fields. We examine how the pressure to prove one's belonging can intensify perfectionist tendencies, creating a cycle that limits authentic contribution and personal fulfillment. Alysha introduces "excellentism" as a healthier alternative—maintaining high standards while responding to inevitable shortcomings with self-compassion rather than harsh criticism.

Beyond theory, we dive into practical strategies for building genuine connections in today's digital-first workplace. From creating intentional spaces for interaction to focusing on being interested rather than interesting, Alysha offers actionable insights for fostering community despite physical distance. Her concept of "connectionism"—the belief that our shared experiences of vulnerability unite us more powerfully than our successes—provides a compelling framework for reimagining workplace culture.

Whether you're navigating a challenging work environment, leading a team through uncertainty, or simply tired of perfectionism's exhausting demands, this conversation offers fresh perspective and practical wisdom. Join us to discover how embracing imperfection might be your greatest leadership asset and the key to more meaningful connection.

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Transcript

Introduction to Alicia Turner

Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to Elevate. Every community needs champions with vision and grit. Today we engage with those who are creating value wherever they go in the state. Welcome to Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast. We're excited here to talk about workplace dynamics, to talk about perfectionism, to talk about gender diversity in the workplace and we're excited for our guest, Alicia Turner. She does business development and bad bet productions and she also is a podcast host for Popping Perfectionism.

Speaker 2 0:35

Welcome. Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1 0:38

Yes, we met at a Women in Leadership Women in Tech networking event. Yeah, working event on slopes networking, yes, and just hit it off and talked about all the things and I said you've got to come on and share your perspectives.

Speaker 2 0:52

So here we are it was funny because I was looking for a place to eat my food just a table to sit down and there was these little tables upstairs and then I realized that wasn't the place to eat because it was a bunch of one-on-one business conversations. But I saw on your table talking about gender dynamics in the workplace or something.

Speaker 1 1:10

What did?

Speaker 2 1:10

it say Something to that effect, and I was like I want to talk to you.

Speaker 1 1:14

Like I want to sit down and chat with you Then we just hit it off and talked for like ever.

Speaker 2 1:19

Yeah, good, awesome.

Speaker 1 1:20

Okay, so let's start out with who you are. Yes, tell us a little bit about what you do with bad bet productions. Um, we always like people to share a fun fact about them, something personal, and um, then we'll move on from there okay, such a big question like I know, tell us about yourself.

Speaker 2 1:40

It's funny I was born on yeah, I know, and I'm not a small talk person, and so one of the questions that I like just dread having sometimes in a conversation it's like what do you do? I love asking like what Are you?

Speaker 1 1:53

telling me I need to have a better question.

Speaker 2 1:57

It's a good question. It is a good question. So what I do specifically at Bad Bets? I do business development for them, so more in the startup, like infancy stages of growth, but they've been up and running for a while but just started building out the team, so I was one of the first business development hires. Yes, and tell us what they do. What is Bad Bet? They do video and podcast production and they brought me on because I have a podcast and I had hosted it for like five years or so. Popping Perfectionism started when I was in college and I took an interpersonal relations course.

Speaker 2 2:34

I studied communication and there was a chapter in that course about perfectionism and I just thought everyone in Utah has to hear this Like how is there not a whole course on this? How are we not learning about this in junior, high and high school and about how perfectionism can harm human connection on so many levels? It's not just the relationship with yourself, but in the workplace or family or romantic relationships. There was a classmate of mine that felt the same way. I gave her a ride home from school one day and we kind kind of knew each other. We were acquaintances, peers in school, and I was just asking her what do you want to do, you know, with, like, the degree and whatever she's like? I want to start a podcast. And it was crazy because the two weeks leading up to that, that's all I thought about was podcasting, and so we started popping perfectionism together that's very cool I love it when the universal lines and you're like what?

Speaker 2 3:27

I've been thinking of that. And then a fun fact too, because you asked about that. Um, there's two. I love to share one. I love survivor, cbs survivor is my favorite show in the whole world. Look at that. Yeah, it's the best. And do you watch survivor? I don't know not anymore.

Speaker 1 3:42

We haven't talked about okay.

Speaker 2 3:44

Well, it's been on for 25 years, so it's been on a while, and they're celebrating their 50th season in the spring of 2026 so very exciting. I wish, I wish I will be on one day. I've applied a couple times and I just tell people like, whether it's at age 29 or 70, i'm'm going to be on Survivor.

Speaker 1 4:05

It's going to happen one day. I can feel it in my bones or be the host?

Speaker 2 4:07

Yeah, that would be amazing. I'd probably have to play first, but I would host it. And then the second thing every year, I just love setting a fun goal, like a hobby type thing, and this year I want to get an online chess rating of 1800 by the end of the year, which is really, really, really hard. And I was evaluating my goals the other day and was like, oh no, it is june. How is it june and I need to play a lot more chess.

Speaker 2 4:34

So if there's any chess fans, you can send them my way or chess players I know at kiln in lehigh there's a group that plays chess, like the first thursday of every month or something. There's groups like that. But yeah, what's a fun fact about you? Like the first Thursday of every month or something.

Speaker 1 4:45

There's groups like that. But yeah, what's a fun fact about you? Oh well, I wouldn't know. We talked about chess, remember.

Speaker 2 4:50

Yes, my son is totally into chess. Your son is into it.

Speaker 1 4:52

Yes, and I would play with him until he wildly trumps me every time. So I need a bigger rating myself. Yeah, fun fact about me is I love to go barefoot, barefoot everywhere. I mean, I don't think I love it. I don't know if I even own socks, to be quite honest.

Speaker 2 5:09

That's amazing. Wait, do you have her sneakers?

Speaker 1 5:11

Yes, but when I need socks, I borrow them from my daughter. So there you go. Fun fact about me Amazing.

Speaker 2 5:18

Well, you probably buy them. Give you 20 bucks if you see me in socks.

Popping Perfectionism: Origin Story

Speaker 1 5:34

Okay, okay, 20 bucks Got it. I love that. You would love Hawaii. Have you been there? I feel like so many people walk around. I could live on the beach, yeah, same. They're like a grocery store and gas station barefoot, or Walmart in my slippers. The top five percent in just 20 episodes is an extraordinary achievement. What do you think drove that rapid traction? That's a good question, because that's not very many. Did you market it like crazy? Do you feel like it was just the topic?

Speaker 2 6:09

topic. Like Truthfully, I think it was the topic because we didn't market, we didn't put our energy into marketing the podcast. We did like Instagram posts and we tell our friends and followers about it and we are like fairly well connected, but I believe it was the content and it was content that wasn't really out there. Yet there are some podcasts on perfectionism, yeah, or, but I would say they're more one off, like conversations about perfectionism.

Speaker 1 6:33

It's not like a whole focused on.

Speaker 2 6:35

Yeah, fully focused on it, and so we saw a wide open lane for perfectionism, and particularly perfectionism in LDS culture. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and that is a very interesting dynamic, especially here in Utah. I think we're a different type of member, but it bleeds out into every aspect of our lives. So my friend Anna and I were like we just have to talk about this. So I think having a topic that is needed and that people resonate with and they're interested in.

Speaker 2 7:13

The second thing is just being genuine and not worrying about it kind of contradicts what I just said, but not worrying too much about what is already out there. One thing I didn't do a lot was like consume other podcasts that were in that space, because I didn't want to compare myself to what was out there and think like, oh, I can't talk about this or I can't do that because it's already being done, just do. I think people should just do what they want to do and what resonates with them and be as true to themselves as they can, because it's someone else is bound to resonate with it, you know. So, yeah, I think the content was needed and we shared it in a really genuine but informative way and had conversations that people weren't having. That were vulnerable conversations and people liked that yeah so.

Speaker 1 8:03

So first thing, when you talked about how you didn't consume a lot in that space, one of the things that we do is our political development series, so women who want to run for office, and it's interesting over the past I don't know five, eight, 10 years as I've watched people run for office sometimes they change because they feel like they have to be like everybody else in the space. So that's been a really interesting dynamic to see how you hold on to your authenticity while still playing in the lane you want to play in.

Speaker 1 8:35

And I think that's really important. What you just touched on is you have to hold that so people can resonate with it. So, with popping perfectionism, what is perfectionism? How would you define it now, after you've done all your interviews?

Defining Perfectionism with Brené Brown

Speaker 2 8:52

That's a big question. My favorite definition of perfectionism is Brene Brown's definition. You're familiar with Brene Brown, I'm sure. Queen Brene, yes, yes, queen Brene, with all the respect and reverence, she's so awesome. Her definition of perfectionism is that perfectionism is a belief that if you try to live perfect, look perfect, act perfect, then you can avoid the pain. Of what is it? Pain of judgment, shame, embarrassment, like vulnerability, all of those really uncomfortable things. It acts as a shield. So she talks about it as a shield that can protect you from all of the parts of the human experience that make us uncomfortable. Yeah, but the reality is that that shield of perfectionism is also pushing genuine connection away from you and growth and growth, professional development, meaningful relationships, relationship with yourself, exposure to diversity and different things. So it ends up hurting you more than it does good, because there is some good functions of perfectionism. But that's the definition that I like to use, that it's just the belief that if you try and be perfect, you'll never get hurt.

Speaker 2 10:12

You'll never be rejected. You'll never be embarrassed.

Speaker 1 10:15

It's such a who doesn't want that, Right, I mean really, on the surface level Sounds great. Yeah, okay. So I want to ask a question about, like, maybe a story that stood out or someone who came on or something you learned, and then I want to pivot it into the workplace too, because I think perfectionism shows up at this intersection of gender and the modern workplace and so I want to pivot there. What's a story that stands out for you? Or you're like oh, I didn't know, or oh, that was so vulnerable.

Speaker 2 10:48

I have to pick my brain of like the best or a good story or example. Truthfully, a lot of them have come from my own life. My co-host and I didn't start interviewing other people until the fourth season of.

Speaker 2 11:03

Popping Perfectionism. So up to that point, we our content was research and our own lived experience. That sounds pretty vulnerable. Yeah, it is very, very vulnerable One that I resonate the most with there's so many but it's probably my divorce and my experience with divorce. I was married for like three years, okay, and it's a very raw, vulnerable, scary experience to go through and it's also something that has brought me incredibly meaningful relationships thing that has brought me incredibly meaningful relationships.

Speaker 2 11:48

But it's because I was able to take this vulnerable experience and learn how to share it with other people, not in a way to like seek praise or seek validation although I'm sure I did that at times but as a way to shed light on a topic that is typically uncomfortable or not talked about very much, which is ironic to me because, I mean, they say 50 of marriages end in divorce. Is that really true? I don't know, but probably yeah. Um, so why is it so awkward to talk about and why is it such a shameful, tricky experience? I mean, I know it's hard. Obviously I've been through it and you can't avoid it being hard, but it can be like taboo at church or in dating or whatever to talk about, sure, but so many people experience it. So why are we weird? Do you know what I'm trying?

Speaker 2 12:33

to talk about what I'm saying it's just like why are we weird about it? Because it happens all the time. So does that go back to?

Speaker 1 12:38

perfectionism of you, don't? It's hard to share those things because you're like I want to be like the perceived everybody else, but if I tell them that I've been divorced, right, then it sets me apart.

Speaker 2 12:51

So I think that example of just using a vulnerable experience to drive a lot of connection and I've made so many of my dearest friends through divorce and we're like this little ex-wives club that I just love them so much.

Speaker 2 13:05

And there's ex-husbands too, of course, that are welcome, um, but then also in the context of the workplace. Yeah, I think imposter syndrome is one of the biggest things, because I mean, with perfectionism, there are these two, two dimensions of perfectionism. It's like cycle and it's like chicken or egg, whatever doesn't matter. There's unrealistic expectations like really high, high, high expectations, both of yourself and of others and of others.

Speaker 2 13:34

Yes, and the high expectations are not the problem, it's when those are not met. It is followed with self-criticism or criticism of others, and then it repeats this cycle of like okay, well, we have to stick with this high goal, because we should be achieving that, but somehow we're not. So we're garbage, or we need to try harder, or maybe we're not cut out for this or whatever it might be. So it's just this vicious cycle. And in the workplace, with imposter syndrome, it's this concept of like someone's going to find out that I'm a fraud and I don't belong here.

Speaker 1 14:12

When the funny part is, of course we're frauds, like there's stuff we don't know Totally yeah totally.

Speaker 2 14:16

I mean not ever in a job interview have I been asked do you know everything and will you never mess up?

Speaker 1 14:22

Right.

Speaker 2 14:23

Because that is the one qualifier you know. No one has said that to me. A lot of the questions are like what has your past experience taught you?

Speaker 2 14:31

Or what was an example of a project that did not go as planned and how did you pivot? Yeah, so I think imposter syndrome is a really big one in the workplace that everyone can resonate with and everyone feels like a fraud and they're worried that someone's going to find out they're an imposter, but everyone really feels the same way. So it's like if we were vulnerable and shared that experience and maybe were more open about it and used it as a way to build rapport and connection in the workplace, everyone could just like okay like we're all struggling, we're all trying, we're all afraid of failure.

Vulnerability and Workplace Imposter Syndrome

Speaker 2 15:08

for whatever reason it might be, you know, disappointing uh leader. It might be being viewed as the weak link. Or maybe you feel like your job's on thin ice. Or maybe you're just afraid of failure yourself. Like what would that say about you? There's a hundred different reasons, but anyway, imposter syndrome is a big one.

Speaker 1 15:27

So something that you said that I love is that high standards are not a problem. No, but when it comes around to wow, what happened when we tried to meet those high standards the environment and the reaction of people, that is where the real mess can happen. Right, because it could be an environment where it's like, wow, we didn't know that. So how are we going to pivot? How are we going to grow? What did you think about that? What can we do better? Or, a lot of times, what I see happen is it's just silence, and that, I feel, is so damaging, because I'm such a big believer in feedback right, because people can grow when there is feedback. People can you know I don't know, self-correct maybe and get out of this echo chamber of perfectionism when you have that. So I think that's really good for both individual people and also managers, leaders, right, all those kind of things 100%.

Speaker 2 16:29

I just thought of a really specific experience when I worked at the Utah Jazz. I was an account manager, so we worked with season ticket holders and one thing that we did there's a number of benefits for season ticket holders and their membership, but they get events like a couple times a year that our team's in charge of planning and one of them includes the players and it's part of their contract.

Speaker 2 16:52

It's like, all right, you gotta show up for the fans and go to this thing and they're like, okay, so covid made it tricky and we were still in this transition period of people being like wary of covid. The vaccine was like mandatory for people to enter the arena and all these things. Players didn't want to interact with people still understandably, sure. So we decided to do a jeopardy type thing, okay, where the players in person online in person.

Speaker 2 17:18

Okay, so excuse me. The players were on the court and the fans were in, like the lower, lower seats they're pretty close to them, but at a distance and the players played jeopardy together and one of my teammates, you know, created the game of jeopardy so fun. Then at the end there was a raffle drawing, okay, and we had a lot of fun gifts, like a trip to wherever and like really cool experiences. I just went blank on everything, but they were fun and the issue was for the raffle, instead of like people who showed up ripping them a ticket and then putting it in the bucket ripping them a ticket okay we just had like a thousand tickets ripped up and put them all in a bucket.

Speaker 2 17:59

Oh no, yeah yeah, you see, you see there where this is going.

Speaker 2 18:02

But I didn't see where it was going given, you know, my like, naivety and inexperience with raffle drawings. So my teammate that was over this, she's the best anyway. So she like goes down, gives donovan mitchell the raffle bucket and he's like all right, start drawing him calling out people. So he draws one and he's like 249, no one like nothing. He's like okay, we'll draw another one, 356. You're like they left early. No one, yeah, no one. Okay, 119 like he. So he went through like 10 tickets and we were like, oh my gosh, this is a disaster, yeah a disaster like the players are like feel the discomfort rising the more tickets that are pulled.

Speaker 2 18:43

Yeah, it was so bad, yeah. And eventually he's like all right, we're just going to start picking people from the crowd. That's a problem, because then season ticket members will be upset and we hear that you know, anyway, what an experience. So it was really really rough. And my team gets together after that and we were just like, and so that was not good yeah and my teammate that was in charge of the raffle.

Speaker 2 19:07

She is such a good example of striving for connection instead of perfectionism. She's like, yeah, that was a pretty big failure. I wish it wasn't at that scale. Like I wish it wasn't with literal nba players and all that. But like, oh well, we learned.

Speaker 1 19:21

And she just like brushed it off like water off a duck's back and you're like wait, we're not gonna beat ourselves up, we're not gonna say all the awful things that happened, yes, so a perfectionist mindset would be like everyone's gonna be upset at me.

Speaker 2 19:34

Everyone thinks that I don't belong here.

Speaker 1 19:36

I embarrassed myself in front of the players, they won't let me do it again, because I totally messed up they won't let me, nor will I try. That was embarrassing that was not like no no, su, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no she can have it.

Speaker 2 20:03

Anytime someone mentions a raffle, again they'll be like triggered, like oh, raffles, but she was justicism. There's a term called excellentism and it basically is similar to perfectionism, but instead of striving for perfection, you strive for excellence, and when you experience failure or mistakes or hiccups or learning experiences, they're met with self-compassion and evaluation, and then you can continue to have high goals and high expectations, because I'm all about that. I'm all about striving to be the best version of you. The issue is the self-criticism or the criticism of others that can be really damaging.

Speaker 1 20:43

Yeah, and then you don't want to set goals, right, because if you don't meet it you're just going to beat yourself up over it.

Speaker 1 20:49

Yeah, as you were talking about that, I've had the opportunity to be with um to work under some really amazing female leaders, and I remember one of my leaders, um, something catastrophic happened in an event we were planning and it just rolled off of her. She's like that's not what I wanted. Let's make sure we don't do that again. But it's okay, we can pivot, we can do this, this and this, and it was the first time that I had had a leader do that and I almost didn't know what to do. I was like wait, what that was so generous and so kind and so resilient. It was really really cool to watch her.

Speaker 2 21:33

Just let which I didn't introduce this term, but connectionism is a term that my co-host and I coined, and it's the belief that pain, vulnerability, shame, embarrassment is the lifeblood of human connection. It's the thing that unites all of us. Yeah, it's something we all have in common. It's not like oh, you've never messed up, like me too. We should be friends. It's like, oh you've never messed up.

Speaker 2 22:06

Like me too, we should be friends. Oh, you've been divorced Me too or you've messed up on a major level, like I get that. We just resonate with that embarrassment and that shame and just like the cringe of oh, me too, like I get that, and I know you get that. And, as a leader, there's still a way to maintain respect and rapport with the people that you're leading and also display connectionism. Like your leader, it's okay to be like. Okay, well, that wasn't great, that's not what we wanted and this is what we can do. Moving forward.

Speaker 2 22:37

She even like I love leaders that are like I have felt that way too, or like I've had imposter syndrome too, or hey, it's okay. One time I did this and this is how I pivoted and this is how I learned and I think that's where a leader plays a critical role is introducing that self-compassion, or having compassion for their team member and being that model for them of excellence-ism, or giving them the space to feel compassionate and not criticized, and also a room for like, development and correction, because you can have both. We need correction, we need feedback, we need guidance, but it can be done in a compassionate, human way.

Speaker 1 23:15

Yeah and I think the other thing it taught me was what not to focus on. We don't have to focus on all the metrics, right?

Speaker 2 23:23

Right.

Speaker 1 23:24

We've got to pick. Those are all important, like, let's get our ducks in a row but as we get through this, what are the absolute most important and let's make sure we're meeting those. So really great experience for me, to both, and I think it plays in that fixed and growth mindset too 100%. So in a 2023 study by Harvard Business Review, perfectionism was on the rise, especially in young professionals and women, who often feel that pressure to outperform, especially in male dominated industries, and I thought that was such an interesting study, especially in the space that we are in. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 24:14

Is that something that you have seen as you've been in the workplace, or what are your thoughts? I think a big reason for that is social media. With perfectionism. There's self-oriented perfectionism, where that cycle exists in yourself. Then there's other-oriented perfectionism where you project the high expectations and criticism onto someone else. It's like well, I'm able to do this and this at work. You can't Like, why can't?

Speaker 1 24:42

Or so-and-so does this Like how come right, that's other oriented.

Speaker 2 24:45

But then there's socially prescribed perfectionism, which I like to call social media, and it's this space where everyone can curate what their life looks like and it's not representative of reality, but what they like, want it to look like, sure, and what it should look like or could look like or whatever. And I think it's made it really, really hard for people that are growing up in this social media age now as professionals. It's like I'm fairly young in my career and I already feel so behind. It's like I don't have the house, I don't drive the nice car, I don't do all the nice trips like so-and-so.

Perfectionism vs Excellence in Failed Events

Speaker 2 25:25

Is posting all about that? Because you consume so much of that, you feel like, and it's all curated. It's not vulnerable, right, you know some of it is, but even the vulnerability is curated because they can edit it and make it look however they want to. So I think social media is really hard and is really hard, and this hustle culture of like well, everyone has a side hustle and when you ask anyone, what do you do? It's like they assume it's about work. So it's like oh, I do this, this, this, and I'm so busy they wear as a badge of honor.

Speaker 1 25:53

I am so, so busy, out of my mind I have no time for anything.

Speaker 2 25:57

Yeah, it's like, and that's good, okay, but specifically for women in male dominated fields, um, sports entertainment, very male dominated industry, and I worked. I worked there for a little while and it's this feeling of like, ok, I already don't belong here, I'm already.

Speaker 2 26:15

And you brought that with you or you feel like they create that. You bring that with you and they create that. I think it's a both and and they did. The Jazz was doing a really good job at the time and really intentional about hiring more women, but I was there early, early on after COVID and so they had let go of so many people and were just starting to build out again, and it was mostly men, very, very, very male dominated, and so I think it's just a byproduct of the culture of just you look around the room. It's not that they're making you feel uncomfortable and you don't see yourself. You don't.

Speaker 2 26:53

And I think that's why representation is important in any field. It's like we need female doctors, we need male teachers, we need to see people of color and positions and all just different diversities and religion and way of thought and ability and disability, so people can see themselves there and see that they can be different and belong in that space. So I think in male dominated industries, for women the imposter syndrome can be magnified because it's like I don't belong here and it shows so I have to prove why I belong right, I don't belong here, and it shows in the ways I'm thinking and in the ways I'm not thinking yes, yes, 100.

Speaker 2 27:36

Just the way women operate and think, and that is a blanket statement of course that all women operate in the same way, which they don't. But statement, of course, that all women operate in the same way which they don't. But it's like, how do I make myself different? Like I have to prove myself, like already, just because I'm different here and because I'm a minority, I have to prove I belong, that they didn't make a mistake. Like I have to be on top of my game all the time. Is how it feels.

Speaker 1 28:03

Yeah, so it's so interesting, right? Because the work that we do. We go into companies and talk to CEOs and do that top down leadership and it's usually men. In the state of Utah we're still running most of the companies and then we work with the women wherever they're at right, if they're entry level, if they're individual contributor, mid-level, to be able to go into a room and know, like Mara Carabello, she comes and speaks for us and she's often said if there's a seat at the table, take it. If someone legitimately needs that seat at the table, then you graciously give it up. But don't just go into the back and the back seat and take that, because that's where you, where you think you belong, and I love that. I feel like it's what you're talking about, because I don't. I don't think that most people try and make other people uncomfortable. No, but we do come with our own perceptions that can then be magnified by the culture that is inherent or hasn't been looked at or hasn't been examined.

Speaker 1 29:06

So it's a. It's a tricky dance.

Speaker 2 29:09

It is a tricky dance and so I think for for men or people that are in the majority because I also worked in higher education it's predominantly women in a lot of the spaces I worked it's just bringing voice and shedding light to what the culture looks like and to giving, like making sure everyone has a voice. Minorities have a voice, majorities can still have a voice, but it's giving everyone weight in a conversation, getting feedback, and it's not like every meeting you have to hear from everybody, but just acknowledging it, like acknowledging that there is difference and acknowledging that that voice matters. It's like okay, okay, alicia, what do you think? And I think, as leaders, especially if they build that connection and I had really good leaders at the Jazz just acknowledging, you know the dynamics of the place and how it feels. And there was like a cool women in sports day and all like all the women got these cool jackets and just things like that to make it don't just like shy away from it and be like, oh, pretend it doesn't exist because it does Right.

Speaker 2 30:09

And the thing I would say to women is look for opportunity instead of shying away from it too, because we feel we have to prove ourselves, often in the male dominated spaces and in female dominated spaces, to not shy away from it out of fear of failure or fear of falling short. Back to perfectionism. Yeah, absolutely, because perfectionism is very driven by fear fear of being discovered, fear of messing up, fear of being embarrassed, being perceived as XYZ, incompetent, unintelligent, whatever it is. So embrace opportunity with a growth mindset that this will be a growing experience, and seek out opportunity, and it's okay to be uncomfortable, it's okay.

Speaker 1 30:53

Yeah, it's okay to be uncomfortable, right, like sometimes. This podcast is awful sometimes because when I talk, my face goes red, like you can see my emotions on my face, and so it's uncomfortable, and it was uncomfortable for a really long time. But that doesn't mean that I wanted to stop doing it. It's just that I embraced the uncomfortable because I knew what I ultimately wanted. So I think that helps at least me fight against perfectionism, because it's like so what?

Speaker 2 31:21

So what? Yeah, I was just going to say when you said that I'm like, and isn't that a good thing? Yeah, so what? Yeah, I was just gonna say when you said that I'm like, and isn't that a good thing? Yeah, that your emotions show and that you're able to display emotion and not be a robot. I am the stone face, but also like who wants to listen to that. You know, like my podcast is very vulnerable and I've cried on my podcast, but there's also been times when I did want to hold up a shield. So it's like, yeah, I'm going through a divorce and no one can see this. This is so hard and I'm not ready to open up about it. And sometimes you're not ready, yeah, and that's OK.

Women in Male-Dominated Industries

Speaker 1 31:51

We're not saying that that's perfectionism, but when you want to break out and you can't seem to break out because of the thoughts that you're thinking about yourself or others, I feel like that's the space we're talking about, right? Yeah, definitely Okay. So let's pivot a little bit and talk about the digital first world. You talked about social media right, and curating it is so. Yeah, the image and everything. How do you build meaningful interpersonal? Back to why you started your podcast connections. Remote and hybrid work has become the norm for most of us professionals and I think that you know five to eight years there will be college degrees for how to build connection right in hybrid settings. We were laughing about this because we're communications people and we're like, yeah, it already is a degree, people just don't realize it. Yeah, um, how do you see that affecting the workplace and interactions?

Speaker 2 32:50

I want to be teaching those classes when they come out, and you should be there too. Um, because this is like my skill is working with people and building relationships with people. It's my favorite thing. Is it harder?

Speaker 1 33:03

over like a podcast, or over a Zoom call, or Certainly.

Speaker 2 33:07

Yes, a podcast, not so much Sometimes, because people can be worried about cameras and a mic or whatever. It's hard to just like let loose, yeah, but over the virtual digital world, very, very much. So I mean my senior, my senior year, my last semester of college, was when covid, you know, everything was shut down. All of my classes were virtual, yeah, and there's a number of things that like inhibit connection, and one of them being cameras on or off. That was the biggest thing in school. My teachers were like please turn your cameras on, please, right, because we want to just see you and hear from you, and so I think, being presentable and having your camera on and being engaged and that sounds small and not everyone loves that but just have it on and be present and show that you're communicating.

Speaker 1 33:59

Because if we were on a podcast and I was just like Well, and body language is so important, yes, and if you can't see their body language, yes. That is so much of what communication is yes.

Speaker 2 34:10

There's so many different modes of communication and channels of communication and different like non-verbals, like body language and like active listening. When I'm talking, you're like yes, yes, but on a zoom call if no one's listening, like you don't know if anyone's listening or not?

Speaker 1 34:27

the worst I have presented and it's all just names over zoom call and I'm like okay are they? Even listening. Like are they eating lunch, like what's happening? It's so tough.

Speaker 2 34:38

So I think, having your camera on and being engaged and being warm, my favorite thing that I've heard and it goes for connecting in person or virtually is, instead of worrying about being so interesting, be interested. Be interested in other people, be interested in their projects, be interested in their development. And I think when you're more concerned with what you can bring to the table for other people, you'll naturally not think about yourself as much, and perfectionism is very obsessed with the self and the self-image and perception.

Speaker 2 35:15

So think about what value you can add and throwing out to team members and classmates or whoever. Like hey, if anyone needs help with this in this project, like I would love to jump in. Or asking for support. Like, hey, if anyone is good in this area, please let me know. Like I could really use support on on this thing, or I could use I would love someone's feedback on this. Yeah, so I think you have to be very proactive about creating connection over the virtual space, because it doesn't organically happen like it does at work.

Speaker 1 35:45

You just can't sit next to someone and like be like hey, how are you?

Speaker 2 35:48

yeah, no, it's not that. So that's, I think, being interested, providing support and asking for support. Um, another thing is just getting to know people's interests and what they like, and like having a lunch group or something that can meet virtually and have lunch. I've done that so many times. Like develop the relationship offline and doing like a book club. You know, it doesn't have to be super deep, personal, it could just be like oh, I love survivor, I love cbs survivor, I connect with so many people on that and it's like let's we have I have online chats about survivor all the time. Or like if you're on slack or teams like similar interests.

Speaker 2 36:24

Yeah, like create a fun little slack channel that's like the survival survivor channel or the real estate channel. If people are interested in that, I want to throw in cool podcasts or videos or books and a book club. Or if you're into dogs and you and another coworker like you know taking their dogs on dog walks or whatever, just figuring out what people are interested in and sharing hobbies and being the person to create a space where everyone wants to come and be like, oh, I'm so grateful someone did this.

Speaker 2 36:55

Because, a lot of people don't. Going back to to perfectionism. We don't want to be rejected or shut down. No one wants to throw a party and have no one come. That is such a thing like yeah, no one wants to throw the party.

Speaker 1 37:07

But if you do the party, they will come and it's like, oh crap, what if they come?

Speaker 2 37:11

but what if they don't come? But boohoo, like I never get invited, you know. So it's like, if you don't get invited, throw the party, throw party, throw the party. And who cares? Like, who cares who will come and not come, because the people who want to be there will be there. So I think, not being afraid of rejection and just being brave enough to throw out and create experiences where people can show up because they will, because people want connection and they want to be invited.

Speaker 1 37:42

So two things about that, first of all. So planning right corporate events for decades and decades. One thing that I had to learn is you do your best and then you just let the universe do the rest. And if there's three people there or if you are a hundred seats over your capacity, like you really can't control that. But the people who show up we're supposed to be there. So I do think there's a you know, you do your best and then you just allow the rest. And I think that's really helped.

Speaker 1 38:15

Against perfectionism is because, over and over and over, I've seen that if I just show up, I don't have to control the results. And then, as a facilitator and a moderator in the online world, I think it also helps to give some structure to the group, to say, hey, everybody, for this particular call, we need everybody's cameras on for the first 15 minutes because we're going to do this, this and this. After that, if you want to hop off, if you want to like, just work in the chat. But I also think as a facilitator, you can really set up and help that connection by the structure that you give and your standards and expectations.

Speaker 2 38:51

Yes, facilitators and event planners and party planners. It's just about creating an experience and creating an environment. Everybody knows the expectations, yes, and everyone knows the expectations, and then the people will bring the party, because people are the party.

Speaker 1 39:05

It's not like the states and the trees and whatever People are the party, people are the party.

Speaker 2 39:10

So you just create an environment where people can do that, and there are so many fun, creative ways to engage people online, like OK, do icebreakers. I love icebreakers.

Building Connection in a Digital World

Speaker 2 39:19

people hate them, but I love them all the introverts are like, please, they're like, oh my gosh, my heart rate is going up like, but fun things where it's like, okay, turn off your camera and run and grab something that represents you or means a lot to you in your space, sure, and then share it with a group, sure. Or doing like breakout things or whatever, like coming up with there's so many online games people can play too, like a kahoot thing or whatever. So, I think, engaging people and not just like talking at them, which can be hard when it's an icon and not a face yeah, absolutely. Um, but yeah, it is hard in the digital world. I think, um, as long as you're genuine and genuinely want connection and want to build people, they will read that and they will get that.

Speaker 1 40:00

It'll come around. It might not happen spontaneously, but it'll come around, yeah it'll come around.

Speaker 2 40:05

So I think just trying and putting yourself out there and being a leader that will do that, and they'll push through the discomfort of being the first one to throw a party or to say something or bring my item back of what I just ran and got, okay.

Speaker 1 40:20

So, speaking of serendipity, that's where we started this conversation, so that's where we're going to wrap up, okay is, um? So I had no idea that you were a survivor lover, but when I sent you the list of questions, the last question is actually about survivor. So I love when that happens serendipity here, I love it. Okay. So here's the question if cbs called tomorrow and you made it onto survivor, what strengths would help you win both in the game and in business? Because you're pretty reflective, um, in your linkedin profile. You have your clifton strengths there, um, knowing yourself and what they are like, what would you bring to the table?

Speaker 2 41:03

I first of all, if I had a heart attack, if a survivor called me, I would be so happy. A dream come true. Strengths in the game yeah, a lot. Truthfully, survivor is a game of relationships, yeah. Social savvy, yeah, very much social savvy people, and there's like physical savvy and being like a strategist and all of those things. But the winners are the social players and the players.

Speaker 1 41:26

You have to negotiate and make packs and all those kind of things.

Speaker 2 41:29

Well, at the end of the day, the jury of people you voted out are voting for you to win a million dollars yeah. Are voting for you to win a million dollars yeah. So there has to be a level of likability and persuasiveness, even though you voted them all out of the game, that they love. So, skills that I would bring to the table in Survivor and my CliftonStrengthsFinder strengths. The top five are positivity, empathy, collaboration, developer and arranger. So I love bringing people together. I love bringing people together, I love working with people and I bring a lot of positivity to a space, and I think people need that in the game of survivor when they're in an uncomfortable situation or business.

Speaker 1 42:11

Yeah, or business they're uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 42:13

survivor is like a cutthroat game where you know people are trying to vote you out and do this, this, this, that business. It can feel the same sometimes. It can feel the same. It's like who's on my side, who's talking about me, who's working together, who's not? Yeah, this project was great and this one's a little wonky.

Speaker 1 42:28

Yeah, was the wonky a word? I don't know.

Speaker 2 42:30

I like it Wonky. Yeah, so it's being able to navigate relationships and connect with almost anyone, which I think I could do. I could have a full podcast with the brick wall behind you, um, so I think I would bring that to the table. And survivor and then just fun, spontaneity, energy, but a lot of strategy. Um, that's why I'm like into chess and into survivor and I love games like. I just love stuff like that because I love working my brain and trying to learn new things. Yeah, um, and studying communication. A lot of it is like group communication, leadership communication, conflict resolution, persuasion, public relations, all of it like a lot of those things would benefit me greatly in survivor.

Speaker 2 43:14

And then the last thing is just I'm a competitor, I love competition, I love sports and so I think I would do well in like challenges and and whatnot, and I love gamifying things that work, so that reflects to business too. I just love making competitions of stuff to have fun and some people don't like it. At the jazz I organized like a pickleball tournament with one of my co-workers and a bunch of people went and played pickleball. We had a cool tournament going on, which was fun. So I think those things would help me in winning Survivor one day.

Speaker 2 43:46

They will help me in winning Survivor one day.

Speaker 1 43:47

That's right when you get on it.

Speaker 2 43:49

When I'm on Survivor, and they help in business too. So that's what I would say Very cool.

Speaker 1 43:57

I love it. Well, I wish you well, both in your 1800th chest. We need to hear, like at the end of the year, how that goes. Yes, and then getting on Survivor, Thank you. Thank you so much. You'll see me on there one day, of course, and I appreciate your thoughts on hybrid work and perfectionism and the stuff we bring with us and the stuff other people have, and how we make that a good experience both in our lives and in our workplaces. Definitely.

Speaker 2 44:19

Yeah, I love it, and perfectionism is something that really hurts human connection, but it doesn't have to, I think, embracing those things that make us uncomfortable. So I really appreciate you facilitating this conversation and I'm excited to listen to it and all of the Women in Leadership podcast to come.

Speaker 1 44:37

Yeah, thank you.