Sophia Di Caro: The Art of Public Finance and Leadership

Discover the art of fiscal responsibility with Sopia DiCaro, the savvy Executive Director of the Governor's Office of Planning and Budget. Join us as she unravels her pivotal role in managing Utah's substantial $30 billion budget. Sopia illuminates how strategic financial planning is not just about numbers but about uplifting communities, particularly focusing on seniors by proposing to eliminate the Social Security tax and investing in programs like Meals on Wheels. Her insights into the delicate balance of revenue and expenditure offer a rare glimpse into the complexities of state budgeting.

Ever wondered how state funding decisions are made? We peel back the curtain on the legislative budgeting process, revealing the intricacies of securing funds in a competitive environment. Learn about the importance of timing, relationship-building with committee members, and the legislative timeline's swift pace. Sopia encourages civic engagement, urging listeners to participate in sessions and virtual hearings, empowering them to advocate effectively for their causes.

Beyond the numbers, our conversation takes a heartfelt dive into the impact of public service and the power of collective civic action. Sopia shares her journey from finance to public administration, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and perseverance in leadership roles. She passionately discusses women’s leadership, the value of mentorship, and the significance of embracing one's unique journey to achieve holistic fulfillment. This episode is a testament to the profound impact of intention and community, inspiring listeners to contribute to positive change in both public and private spheres.

www.wliut.com
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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast, where we showcase stories, celebrate successes and shift culture. Hello and welcome to another episode of Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast. We are here with the lovely Sophia DiCaro. The lovely Sophia DeCaro. She is the Executive Director of the Governor's Office of Planning and Budget and also the Senior Advisor to Governor Spencer J Cox. She is also a member of the Women's Leadership Institute Board and we're excited to have you here. Thank you for coming. Well, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Yes, she is a busy woman, so this has been on the books for a long time, so we're glad we're finally here and get to have the conversation. To begin with, we always like to ask people something personal about them, something that maybe others might not know, or a fun fact. We've had all kinds of people with all kinds of stories, so is there something you'd like to share?

Speaker 2 1:04

Let's see. Well, I was born on a military base. Okay, is that interesting? Yes, where? On Camp Pendleton, near San Diego, very cool.

Speaker 1 1:17

Yeah, and you were just telling us how numbers you remember numbers.

Speaker 2 1:22

I do. I have a photographic memory, but I can't predict what I will remember and what I won't remember, but I do sometimes remember random facts and figures for some reason.

Speaker 1 1:33

Yeah, I think that's a great thing it comes in handy in this job.

Speaker 2 1:38

For sure yeah.

Speaker 1 1:39

Okay, so let's pivot right into that. My guess is that many of the people listening may or may not know what someone who works at the Office of Planning and Budget and a senior advisor to the governor, so kind of flesh that out for us. What is your job? What do you?

Speaker 2 1:59

do. Yeah, think of it as the chief financial officer for the state, for the executive branch. You could say it that way. Okay, so we are. Basically we oversee $30 billion of the state taxpayer dollars and monitor how that gets executed. We primarily build the governor's budget recommendations and of course, there's three branches of government. I've had the pleasure of serving in both the executive branch and the legislative branch. I'm a former lawmaker and served in the House of Representatives. So you know, constitutionally the legislature gets to pass laws and they get to enact a budget and the executive branch gets to implement what the legislature passes. So that's what we do. But we we prepare. According to statute, we're required to prepare a budget for the legislature to consider. So our office builds the governor's budget recommendations and that then gets passed to the legislature. So you know, we just finished that process.

Speaker 1 3:16

I was gonna ask like how long that seems like it might take a hot minute.

Speaker 2 3:19

It does take a hot minute and a lot of hours and a lot goes into that. We started the process in end of August, early September and just finished it and released it to the public on December 4th, which was what last week Week before last A couple weeks.

Speaker 1 3:39

Yeah, yeah. So if someone wanted to see it, where would they go to see what that budget is? Yeah, so if someone wanted to see it.

Speaker 2 3:45

Where would they go to see what that budget is? You could go to GOPBUtahgov and you can see it there, and then that kind of launches the discussion into the session. And this year we have a budget that primarily focuses on seniors. So there's a proposal to eliminate the Social Security tax altogether. Legislature has done a great job, doing a little bit over time, and this budget proposes to just eliminate all of it and also invest in our seniors and helping them keep the income they have, helping them stay and age where they are, and then helping you know Meals on Wheels, programs like this that support the seniors, because we know as a nation we're aging and even though we're one of the youngest as a state, we are also aging. Just all of our demographics, with the baby boomers, are retiring, and so the goal is to try to be as proactive as we can in preparing for that big trajectory of growth in our aging population.

Speaker 1 4:56

Interesting. I didn't realize what a vulnerable population those who are aging are until I went I think it was a couple of years ago to a committee hearing during the legislative session, and the people testifying were both people who delivered meals, like Meals on Wheels, and then also people from homeless shelters, people experiencing homelessness Because what was happening is that the rent was increasing or the ability for these aging populations. They couldn't make their rent, and so it was like where do they go and who moves them there and how you know, if you don't have family to support you, what does that look like?

Speaker 1 5:45

and I just remember leaving that, thinking there are so many people who are helping, but what really is the fix to help these people have the income they need to live a good quality life for the rest of their life, and what is our part in that right? Yeah, I feel like that's a very respectful approach.

Speaker 2 6:06

Yeah, I mean, and then there's other, you know, facets to becoming a vulnerable population and so making sure we're protecting them from predatory practices that are out there, and you know, just helping families take care of their aging parents is a big one too, and so you know, whatever we can to help them stay where they are, if that's what makes the most sense. I think that translates down to families too.

Speaker 1 6:40

Okay, so walk me back through the process, because I can see like a family budgeting process, right, does the governor come to you with recommendations and then you sit down and say that's too expensive, or maybe we can put some money here. And then, once you submit something to the legislators, how close does it come out on the other end?

Speaker 2 7:00

Yeah, these are great questions and I think anytime you're thinking of budgeting public budgeting you have to think about revenue and expenditures and it's always you know anytime's taxes that people pay every quarter. We monitor those taxes and there's a variety of different forms of taxes. The largest ones are income tax and then sales tax. Those are what we call state funds and that's pretty much what builds the bulk of the budget. And then you have other funds, like federal funds and fees and things like this that come into play. But primarily we build the meat of the budget off of your income taxes and sales tax. Those are the primary sources. So we have a consensus revenue process where we get together with the legislative branch and the tax commission the one who's collecting those taxes, and our economists. They're all a group of very smart people and wonky, very wonky people and she means that in the best way, right In the absolute best way.

Speaker 2 8:18

I'm probably one of those wonky nerdy people.

Speaker 2 8:22

But very talented folks who monitor each single revenue source. And then we get in a room and we hash out you know what we think is coming in based on what we're seeing, and each one they don't talk to each other in the interim period they formulate their own you know analyses and what they're thinking, and then we come together and then they hash through each one of those and what they're saying and what they're thinking. Then we come up with an average of each one of those funding sources and the beauty of this is that we get to start to build a budget based on the same numbers. We're all on the same page and that's unique to Utah.

Speaker 1 9:08

It's really transparent.

Speaker 2 9:09

Other states do it too. But the benefit is that you remove the politics of it where you have, like, the legislative branch positioning off of a higher number than the executive branch you know, or things like this that happen in other states. So you remove the politics by having a consensus revenue process. We monitor that on a quarterly basis and come up with a consensus figure twice a year one for the governor's budget and then again in February, when the revenue gets, you know, updated. So then we know how much money we have and then you build a budget based off of that. And we have executive branch agencies and they come to the table and make requests. So every year we come up with budgetary guidance and say here's the rules of the game. Basically here's what we're seeing, here's what the economy looks like and you know, here's what you should think about when you're submitting your requests. We have an incremental budget, which means we have a base budget that kind of carries forward every year, and so a lot of what you hear about is the incremental changes the.

Speaker 2 10:19

You know ups and downs of the base, on top of the base or below the base, know ups and downs of the base on top of the base or below the base, and in years where?

Speaker 1 10:31

there's growth.

Speaker 2 10:31

you'll hear a lot about what requests are coming in from that growth. In years where there's not growth, we talk a lot about cuts or reallocations within the base. And so we've been very blessed over the last four years to have revenue because of our really healthy budgeting practices and some of the anomalies we are seeing coming out of COVID and the pandemic, and because of that we've been able to do some great things. Now we are starting to see a lot of normalization, pre-pandemic level activities normalization pre-pandemic level activities the economic indicators we traditionally track are starting to normalize as well, and that suggests a smaller level of growth in the near future.

Speaker 2 11:16

We're still, you know, flushing through a lot of that COVID money as well. So you know money as well. So you know we've built a great budget off of modest growth levels and that will now go into the legislative session. And that brings me to your second question, which is you know how much of that typically gets passed? There's a lot of bantering, back and forth and joking about. You know. It's often heard that when a legislator gets the governor's budget, they throw it directly in the trash.

Speaker 2 11:54

So, there's a lot of bantering back and forth, but the reality is is we have such a large budget and much of that is the incremental changes that it would take a lot more work to do a zero-based budget. So we actually do need each other to manage our money and to build budgeting over time and much of that. We are on the same page with these big chunks of things and expenditures we have like personnel and things like that. So you know a lot of it gets adopted.

Speaker 1 12:26

And I know, you know.

Speaker 2 12:29

I want to be very humble in saying that as well, because we know very well that it's the legislature's constitutional duty to enact the budget.

Speaker 1 12:39

And we respect that role. I noticed you used that word enact Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 12:42

We respect that role very much and we know that word enact Yep, yep, we. We respect that role very much and we know that our budget, uh, is recommendations and um, but uh, I, I am, you know we work very hard to collaborate with a lot of lawmakers and I think because of that, uh, we do see a lot of the recommendations get through at the end of the day.

Speaker 1 13:11

So it's curious because, as a nonprofit and having been to the Hill before to ask for money for various things not with WLI but in other instances like with maternal mental health how do people know if they want to request money and have it be in the budget? Is that the process? Can they do that? How often is that taken? Do they go to you? Do they go to the legislature? Like, what does that look like? And I'm asked these questions because oftentimes we think people know, but really in conversations that we've had, they really don't know how all of this works.

Speaker 2 13:44

Yeah, well, it's hard because there's so many needs. Yes, and we see all of it, and any time there's requests going through the legislative process you're competing with, you know these programs that help children yes, with other really good causes Help children, you know, corrections and personnel that are, you know, going to work in these really tough environments.

Speaker 2 14:12

Highway patrol, education. There's so many needs and it's impossible for government to fund all of the needs that come forward because it's just so vast, right, and so a lot of the needs come from the state just growing pains of the state and whenever lawmakers create new programs or create demand for programs, or just the growth of our state backlog on water infrastructure, for example, billions of dollars transportation, billions of dollars housing the needs go on and on and on. So demand is definitely there and if one wants to compete in that environment, then there's different stages. Yes, you can go directly to your legislature. That's what they're there for, and each person is represented to represent a certain geographical area and a constituency, and so many do go straight to the legislature. If you go to the governor's budget and you're able to get it in the governor's recommendation, it gives it a little more weight because we have a very, you know, we apply a high level of scrutiny to every single request and if it gets through that process, that speaks volumes as well.

Speaker 2 15:39

If the governor is saying, the governor supports it. That goes a long way when it finally hits the session. And then, when it but does hit the session, they have a process as well. Um, so many processes. I talk about it and like there's basically three games, if you will and I'd hate to call it games because they're really like benchmarks, I guess, of a process. But governor's budget is one yeah, if you're successful in getting there increases the chance, the success chances of getting through at the end of the day you start with. Then, if the, when the session starts, you have your appropriations subcommittees, yeah, and they're very important.

Speaker 2 16:20

If you don't know, those are very important and they're kind of divided by topical areas like criminal justice or social services, business and labor. You then make a pitch to have. You have to have a lawmaker sponsor your request. They then pitch to that appropriation subcommittee. Each subcommittee gets a pot of funding and they all kind of report to this, like Uber executive appropriation committee, which is made up of all leadership of the House, senate, majority and minority leaders.

Speaker 2 16:55

So, basically all the leaders of the legislature sit on the executive appropriations committee, so they get their own little budget as well and based on what revenue is available. You know each one of those committees have a process where things are heard and it's typically matched up by you know topical area.

Speaker 2 17:15

If your item gets through and ranked in that committee, yeah, that increases its chances of making you know light at the end of the tunnel there and coming to fruition. And then if that committee makes a recommendation to the executive appropriations committee, that gives it more weight. At the end of the day, the executive appropriations committee they get to determine what ultimately gets funded.

Speaker 1 17:42

So all the committees in the different categories then send their requests to the Appropriations Committee.

Speaker 2 17:48

The chairs of those committees then make their pitch to the.

Speaker 2 17:52

Executive Appropriations Committee and they say, hey, this is what our committee wanted, this is how we ranked our priorities. We'd like for you to consider that Sometimes they say, okay, what are your top five to ten? You know priorities and then they go from there. They do try to honor that the wishes of their committees, because that's their. You know respective bodies, but they do get to decide at the end. You know if there's, you know, things around the edges or not. If there's things around the edges or not.

Speaker 2 18:25

The subcommittees also make reallocation recommendations and sometimes they move money in state agencies to make certain things happen. And then the executive appropriations committee makes the final call and then it shows up in a budget bill and boom, it gets passed by the entire legislature. Every budget bill has to go through each chamber of the House and Senate and then get voted on by the entire legislature and then get signed by the governor. Governor has line item veto authority and if he signs it it goes into law. And then, voila, we start the process all over again for the following year.

Speaker 1 19:06

So that's, a lot.

Speaker 2 19:07

Yearly process, but that's kind of the process in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 19:12

I love that. So let's just take a few asides out of that. One aside for me is please, if you are listening, get to know who is on that appropriations committee. Get to know who is on that appropriations committee, because if you have any kind of bill that you were talking to someone about that is marked with money, they are going to be important. Also, another takeaway is that we're only in session two months 45 days, yes, but we are working on it all year round, right? So we're headed into the legislative session right now. In January it starts, and if you've never been, I would just encourage people to go up and listen, just be there, listen, pay attention. Yeah, it is a complicated process.

Speaker 2 19:57

Yeah, it is and fortunately for us we we have a great legislature with the process is very transparent. We have a great legislature with a process that's very transparent, so it's very easy to follow committee hearings without being there in person. You can listen to it all virtually. It's more fun if you can be there in person, but you can follow legislation and appropriations online as well and get a sense for what's going on. But it's absolutely something everyone should try. Try to follow a bill through the whole process and see what happens and you know. Try to learn more about how it works, because government whether you're interested or not, government does impact your life.

Speaker 1 20:42

Yeah, that's the thing I was just thinking, because often so in the work that we do with corporations right, teaching them the value of gender diversity, and then also with individuals' leadership skills and capacities, it's and often, especially in our state, people will come up and say why did they do that? Or why does Utah function this way? Don't they know this, this and this? Or I remember running a panel and a woman getting up and being like Utah doesn't care about women and I'm going to leave the state, and I remember one of the people on the panel was like no, like, stay and be part of the process, because it is a process which means that it might take a hot minute, but it also means we have to participate. Yeah, so I think that's really good for people to hear of. It's complicated, so, while you might not agree with some of it, if you don't agree, go participate, like that's the whole point of it. Amen to that. Yeah, go participate. So thank you for giving us an overview of that, absolutely.

Speaker 2 21:45

Well, and if you love budgeting, I mean it is fun.

Speaker 2 21:51

It is fun and it can be a fascinating roller coaster ride.

Speaker 2 21:57

So I just encourage anyone interested to you know attempt to do it this session and reach out to your lawmaker and know who your lawmakers are. It's a very important and it's a simple thing to do. If you know who elects you and represents you, you can reach out to them and they will talk to you. That's what they were sent out there to do, and so I just encourage everyone to do that, and you can go to voteutahgov, type in your address and it will give you a list of every single elected official that you have, from your local all the way to your federal, with how to contact them, and you know everyone should go do that and have your list of people who represent you so that, whatever issue that comes up, you know at least how to start the navigation process Something about it yeah, and not to be overwhelming, because this is Christmas and New Year's and then the session right as we're thinking about like, okay, and now I've got to go to contact my representative, not to overwhelm anyone, but it's super easy.

Impact and Participation in Government

Speaker 1 23:03

Could be a text, could be an email. Make sure they know that you're a constituent. I remember teaching a lady about this very process and and working through what she's going to say, and she felt very passionately about something and actually the representative emailed her right back and she was like what, what do I say now? I didn't expect that. What do I say now? I'm like, well, continue, what do you want? Like have this conversation. So it's it's fun to watch people engage in the process, wherever in that process they are.

Speaker 2 23:31

Yes, yeah, and. And there's so many ways to participate too. You know I happen to run for office and and you know being an elected official, but you don't have to do that to make change or to influence the process. You can participate in a variety of different ways. You can serve in the executive branch, you can serve on a board or a commission, you can be an advocate and go, you know, testify for something you care about. There's a gazillion ways to participate in the process, even as simple as voting. You know making sure that you participate in your constitutional right, which was given to you and, you know, fought hard by a lot of people for us to have this privilege, and it's incumbent on all of us to make sure we're not taking that for granted.

Speaker 1 24:23

Yeah, yeah. I think one of the biggest lies is that you know we, nothing we do impacts change. It's just a lie in my opinion. It might not impact change the entire way that you want it, but no, I don't think every good deed matters. In my opinion, it's true. Every bucket, every, every. I can't think of the saying every puddle in the bucket, that's not what I want to say.

Speaker 1 24:51

Every drip in the bucket, something like that. Okay, so now I want to pivot to. You talked about finance and loving numbers and and all of those things. What took you into finance? That can be a very male dominated area. What, what really drove you into that? Was there like one moment or a decision, or it's it's.

Speaker 2 25:13

it's an interesting question because, you know, I've never been one to like calculate numbers quickly, or you know, it's more of a photographic memory. Okay, I don't, I'm not a CPA but for some reason, and I'm not an attorney, but for some reason I every job I've had touches money in some way, shape or form, or some regulatory frame, you know, some legal lens of some kind. So it's been a theme. It has been a theme. Okay, you know I. So I'm not exactly sure why that is. I think it's maybe because I tend to be responsible in managing things. But here's the money. Manage that For some reason.

Speaker 2 25:59

Yeah, I've had the privilege to work in an investment advisory role where I did, you know, compliance and did a lot of regulatory work and worked with very much wanted to go to law school and got into law school and decided to pause because I had an opportunity to do an internship in the governor's office planning a budget oh really.

Speaker 2 26:30

So it is interesting because I was very much gravitating to that path and ended up doing this, and then I never looked back. So so, um, and from there, uh, you know it's, it's always been roles where, um, you know, in the public administration space that deals with money or law.

Speaker 1 26:51

Um, so that, decision worked out really well. I guess it did yeah Uh, but it's been.

Speaker 2 26:56

It has been super fascinating that I find myself um in every job that I end up taking in that realm of some kind. But I have an MPA, a Master of Public Administration and.

Speaker 2 27:10

I did my undergrad in political science. So there you go. I know we were talking earlier about that, but political science has always been fascinating to me, and it's this idea of the balance of powers, yeah, and it did teach me how to write and how to understand those dynamics, yeah, and I think that's, you know, what fascinates me still to this day in the jobs that I've had and what I've seen and done in the public sector, but also in the private sector, to see how government actually impacts the private sector, and how one sentence of law can translate to thousands of pages of regulation and be so costly for a private sector company to implement and follow, and so it's been nice to see all angles of the implications and impacts that government can make in your life.

Speaker 2 28:10

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 28:12

So two questions come to mind. The first is when you pivoted sometimes people are nervous of change Sometimes people wouldn't be able to say I'm going to pause this to go do this. Was there any? Were you scared at all?

Speaker 2 28:27

Or you were just like this is a great.

Speaker 1 28:29

I'm going for it.

Speaker 2 28:30

You know, I think that if you're scared, that should be the motivation to go do it, that should be your trigger to like oh, you got to go do it.

Speaker 1 28:38

You got to go do it and do it anyway.

Leadership Lessons in Public Service

Speaker 2 28:39

That's what I tell my kids Feel the fear and work through that fear and just do it, just do it. Life is short, yeah yeah, because you just have to get used to being uncomfortable, and if you start being too comfortable, then I think that's the sign that you need to go test your boundaries test yourself to do something else. Um I if, in my case, um I was working a lot of hours as in, you know, economic development at the time and um you know I had, I was on my third child.

Speaker 2 29:12

I had two budget babies and one economic development baby and I just felt like you know what I'm working way too much. I want to be with my children and that's how I want to say you should honor whatever chapter you're in in life and it's okay to you know. Evolve with the chapters that are present in your life. For me, at the time, I wanted I, my baby, my economic development baby was four years old and I thought you know what I? This is my last child. I know I'm not going to have another child. I want to spend more time with them while they're young. I need to find something that will give me more time to do that. And then, but I'm like I, so I asked myself but I love public policy, so I started. You know I'd monitored the legislature for so many years.

Speaker 2 30:04

And so I started looking at like elected office and I thought, well, you could do that part time and you could still, like you know, be involved. Yeah, so I started looking into it and never dreamed of doing anything like that. My elected official at the time had won his last election by 77 votes and I said, yeah, I could. I could swing 77 people. I'm just going to do.

Speaker 1 30:29

I had no idea what I was getting into Wait are you telling me that you you thought, well, my part time job that could be flexible, so I could be home with my kids is running for the legislature. Job that could be flexible so I could be home with my kids is running for the legislature.

Speaker 2 30:47

Yes, I love it. Oh, I love that. Well, I'd learn, like it's a part-time legislature and I actually know how it works. I can you know, but I had no idea of the political side of things or the political dynamic. That was all new to me, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 30:58

So I threw my name in and had no idea what I was doing and you know, my husband and I we kind of swapped roles because it was always me having this job that was inflexible. So he we transitioned, he got a more, you know, inflexible job and I had quit my job, job, and I had quit my job, which was a big deal. But I thought, well, I want to, you know, have some space between I want to be able to represent me and my district. So I ran and it was the year that Vote by Mail was implemented and it was 2014 at the time and I had won by 33 votes and or, I'm sorry, I'd lost. I'd lost on election night by 33 votes and was devastated and thought I had campaigned that district like it had never been campaigned before. I probably knocked on 5,000 doors, really got to know my neighbors, got to know the area and we were just devastated.

Speaker 2 32:07

Yeah, and then two weeks later, because you're in the dark until all those vote by mail ballots came in Two weeks later, I'd won by like 200 and something votes, and so it was totally shocked.

Speaker 2 32:14

That's a roller coaster, so I knew what it felt like to lose and I knew what it felt like to win. But it was an amazing experience and, uh, through that campaign trail, I had my kids with me in a wagon, I was pulling them, they had their little flyers and they probably got more votes than I did going door to door, door to door. But, uh, it was an amazing experience because it was a family affair and I was able to, like, do that with them and they got to learn a lot about, you know, building their confidence, how to talk to people, and I think it's tainted them now, now that they're older, because they're like don't make me knock on any more doors, mom.

Speaker 1 32:51

I did that, mom.

Speaker 2 32:52

Yeah, but it was. It was a great experience and we got to, you know, serve in the house and and we got to serve in the house and did that as a family as well and learned that I needed more for my mental health imbalance, that I needed to do more professionally for me to be the best mom ever. But I did in that summer period, Sophia's summer camp. I had a ball with them. I, you know, did a Japanese lesson over a 10-week period and. But that's when I went into the private sector and, you know, was privileged to be in an environment where they supported continued public service and ran for reelection and it flipped in the other direction.

Speaker 2 33:43

That was the year Trump ran for the first time and it flipped in the other direction and since then, I ran for county council at large in 2018. And that was the year that marijuana was on the ballot, and that was the year that marijuana was on the ballot and so, um, you know that, uh, I ended up losing that election as well, but then it ended up translating, uh into the opportunity I have today, uh, and it all worked out perfectly fine. So, you know, this is, uh, the fifth governor I've had the opportunity to work for really, uh, it started with love.

Speaker 2 34:20

Governor I've had the opportunity to work for, really, I started with Lovett and then had the opportunity to work for Walker and then Huntsman Herbert and now Governor Cox, and have loved the experience I've had it's about 24 years now in state government and in different you know angles of views, different angles of views and because of my time in the legislature, I think I am good at what I do in this role. Because of my experience that I had there, I can understand the perspective of a lawmaker and respect that. So it's been a fun ride and I just say just go for it.

Speaker 2 35:04

And yeah, everything's scary, but life is really short. Yeah, I've also had a lot of death in my family and from that experience there's always a blessing that can come out of hard experiences. And but through through a lot of that, I've learned that life is short and so if you have an inkling to do something, or you know, if you're in a chapter in your life where, where you need to, you know change your environment to be mentally sound and healthy, then do it, Because you know we're not getting any older. Well, we are getting older, we're not getting any younger.

Speaker 1 35:48

I love that. Yeah, I have a friend that calls it the gift in the wound Right. Some situations might really really hard, but if you look, there's always a gift and whatever was like oh, why am I going through this? Or what is this? And the other thing I loved about your story is a you took your skills and thought, okay, I need my skills and I want to spend time with my family. What can I do? And then you did it. You're like I can get 77 votes totally, and it was a family affair, because many women are like well, I'll wait until after I raise my kids. But I love that. You just showed that is one option and another option is no, let's not take your kids along with you. So I love that story. That's fun.

Speaker 2 36:30

I didn't know that yeah, well, and you know, our uh lieutenant governor, uh, deidre henderson, uh, she waited until she raised her kids and you know I have a lot of respect for her because she I rushed through my education experience. I'm like, nope, I got to do this, I got to get it done, I got to get, got to get my bachelor's done, got to get my master's done, got to. You know, check these boxes. She had a different story where she waited, raised her children and then then went back to school, graduated with her son, which I thought was awesome, and now, you know, she's running the state with the governor and provides a whole different perspective, but also is an example of it's never too late to do what you want to do. And you know, accomplish the things you want to accomplish. Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:24

Amen, yeah, so I want to go to that. You brought up the lieutenant governor. You also brought up five governors. From a leadership perspective, the interesting thing is that all leaders are different, like there's no one size fits all. It's very much emotional intelligence, it's your skill, it's how you handle people, it's how you show up. Handle people, it's how you show up. From your experience dealing with the lieutenant governor and the governors, is there like a guiding principle or a guiding characteristic that's stood out as people who lead this state of something that they do they've all done really well.

Speaker 2 38:00

Oh, wow. Well, each one have great leaders.

Speaker 1 38:03

Because they're all different.

Speaker 2 38:04

Very different and all great leaders, and you know it's hard because you have a short period of time to get as much done as you can do, sure, but I could go on and on about each one of those. I like to talk about Governor Eileen Walker, because I was such a young in my 20s, and one of the things I respected a lot about her was her humility, because you know, it's easy to say I'm the governor and you know, and you know, have some ego a little bit, yes, but one thing that she did that I will never forget she used to walk the floor.

Speaker 2 38:53

She used to go into random, you know, state agency environments and she would just go to interns and each individual person. So when I was in the budget office I felt this hand on my shoulder, scared the crap out of me. I'm like, who is that Turn around? It's the governor. I'm like, oh my gosh, the governor's in my cubicle, governor's in my cubicle. And she just put her hand on my shoulder and said I just want to thank you. Every single person here, including you, is contributing to the success of this administration and I just want to thank you. Wow, and what a great gift to just have. Your gift of presence and gratitude in such a direct way Blew me away that the governor would take time to do that and she did it to everybody. She would do that to every single person on the floor and then she would, you know, go, walk to the state office building at the time, walk the halls and just tell people thank you.

Speaker 2 39:55

And she was so relatable, there was no ego about her, she was just very, you know, down to earth and non-threatening and acknowledged that she couldn't, you know, do what she did were it not for all the people that were there supporting her, down to the interns, and I'll just never forget that. So I like to share that story because she actually and I think it was the Women's Leadership Institute she was a speaker early on and when she was talking about how she won her because she served in the House as well talked about yeah, I just, you know, I used to have all the kids in my house because she had kids, they used to all hang out at my house and you know, I just went and visited, knocked doors, and when I realized, oh, that's, all it takes is knocking on doors and talking to people, that's how you won your election, then I realized that's like people can do that, that's doable, you know. So, anyway, she very much inspired me.

Speaker 1 41:03

That's a beautiful story. I love that. Yeah, there's something about being seen and recognized right. It creates a lot of loyalty collaboration, all those kind of things.

Speaker 2 41:14

Yes, absolutely. But I have so much respect for all of our leaders I could share strengths about each one of them that have made a difference in our state. That have made a difference in our state, and Governor Cox also is one. He's just not afraid to, you know, make to do hard things, Even if it might be unpopular for a hot minute. He will do it if he knows it's the right thing and has, you know, strong conviction.

Speaker 2 41:41

Social media is an example of that where you know he's not afraid to do it because, at the end of the day, we all know we're here for a short period of time and we have a limited time to really move the needle. So where can we move the needle the farthest? And it's on some of these issues where someone's got to step up and, you know, throw the rock in the lake. I'm really bad at metaphors and analogies. I don't even know if that was right.

Speaker 1 42:12

My drop in a bucket, your rock in the lake. Hey, we're just working through this, people, we have other strengths, okay. Okay, so you brought up the Women's Leadership Institute and I want to talk about that a little bit. So you're on our board. You've participated with us. So you're on our board. You've participated with us. What, as we celebrate this 10 years? What drew you to the board? What changes or stories of impact have you seen from the work that the Women's Leadership Institute has done?

Speaker 2 42:42

I'd love to hear about that angle too. Yeah Well, I just have the utmost respect for Senator Pat Jones. Yes, and I had the privilege of watching her in action for many years when she served in the Senate.

Speaker 1 42:54

Okay, Did you two serve at the same time?

Speaker 2 42:57

No, no, we didn't. She actually she had left. She had left and this was about a year before I ran Okay, I think a year or two before I ran, but she had left to start the.

Speaker 1 43:09

Women's Leadership Institute 2015.

Impactful Stories in Women's Leadership

Speaker 2 43:12

Um, and you know we had worked with her cause. I was in economic development, um on a variety of different things and uh had a lot of respect for her. Uh, when I ran for office, um, again, I told you I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't understand the dynamics between a Democrat and a Republican and how you're not supposed to talk to each other. I reached out to, like you know, because I had monitored the Democrat caucus for so many years and the Republican caucus. I didn't really understand the political dynamic because I did a lot of the policy side. I didn't really understand the political dynamic because I did a lot of the policy side.

Speaker 2 43:51

Just, you know strictly the analysis behind whether or not something makes sense logically, and so all of that was new to me and and she had actually endorsed me for that first race that when I, when I first decided to run and I didn't understand fully what that meant until later, uh, when, when you know, because that was a hard thing for her to do, because she ended up taking bullets for that, which I didn't understand at the time, until after I got in I'm like, oh, that was a big deal for her to do that and I respect her for doing that because it was brave.

Speaker 2 44:33

It was not politically a smart thing to do, right, and she did it anyway, which speaks a lot about her character. But she had asked me after I won that race, she had asked me to join her board, and so I've been serving ever since and I got to share my experience about what I went through when I ran for office and what that was like, and it's been just wonderful to see how it has transformed, where she started and where we are a decade later. And I have a fun story and I think I shared this earlier with you before, but not in this open forum here, but one of those first forums that I spoke at, yeah, One of the cohorts?

Speaker 2 45:27

Yes, yeah, forums that I spoke at, yeah, uh, yes, yeah, I was on a panel, um, and, uh, someone in the audience I, I, I don't, I can't even remember exactly what I shared, but apparently it was something about encouraging people to go, you know, to school or just following your dreams or just doing it Right. Um, and years later, uh, you know, she ended up working in her office, in my office. Now, I did not remember that. I met her like 10 years prior there, but something I said motivated her to then go to school and, you know, follow what she wanted to do, and she remembered that I had forgotten that, and but I, she went through the hiring process. She was great. We ended up hiring her, and I made the connection more clearly when she had presented, in one of our staff meetings, a picture of the meeting oh, really from like 10 years prior, okay, uh, and had remembered what we discussed on that panel and how much it impacted her wow

Speaker 2 46:36

and she brought that forward in our staff meeting and I totally didn't make that full connection until then and thought, wow, that's the power of the women's Leadership Institute, because every single woman who goes through either you know a speaking engagement or one of the development series that that's done there. Every single one of those women have a story that, who knows when it will surface it can surface a decade later, but but to know that, wow. So that program at that time made a difference for her. And here it is surfacing a decade later and that's the power, I think. And now, if you think about all of the lives that have been touched through, you know learning something that went through that program. Just multiply it. Think of the multiplier effect that has occurred. You know of the work that has been done.

Speaker 2 47:39

And so, anyway, I think a lot about that and because you don't often know what you're saying, like when you participate on you know a panel or if you do whatever work you're doing at the time you may not think that it's making a difference or that people are hearing or that it matters. Maybe you don't get that feedback immediately, maybe you get that a decade later, but it was a great reminder like oh wow, there's some great things happening, there's some great work going on and I just feel a privilege to be part of it and hope that you know I can give back what I gained from it to more people. So anyway, it's it's. I have a lot of respect for what Pat has been able to build over time and, including you, having you come into the work that's being done, I think you've been able to magnify that and magnify the stories and the work to so many others that it's powerful and I'm excited to see where it goes next.

Speaker 1 48:46

Yeah, yeah, oh, I love that so much.

Speaker 1 48:50

It hits on several things that we have weaved throughout this year the idea of the seeds planted, like you never really know how someone took something.

Speaker 1 49:01

The idea, like with Olean Walker, of huh, she did that, I can do that, right, being able to see it in people's stories and then say I could do that, I can do that, right, being able to see it in people's stories and then say I could do that, I can negotiate with my boss, I could run for office, I could, I could be the CEO, yes, all those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 49:19

And then also at the end, like just last time with Brooke and Tanya we talked about how important recognition is right Just being able to say, oh okay, I spoke and you took something from that. Thank you for telling me how great that full circle moment is, and I always love because you know there is a lot of work to be done, as we all know. But one thing that this podcast was started for is to shine a light on the work that has been done, on the ripple effects that have taken place on those stories, on those moments, because that is movement too, and I love that you brought that up and showcased that in so many of your stories today.

Speaker 2 50:02

Yes, Well, I again. I just appreciate the opportunity to participate in this and share more. And, yeah, just thank you for having me be part of it.

Speaker 1 50:15

Absolutely. Thank you. I've appreciated our conversation. Anything else that you want to share with our listeners about the Women's Leadership Institute, about the state of Utah, about you? Anything that we haven't covered that you have a burning desire to share?

Speaker 2 50:29

Well, I just want to encourage again you know I think it's sometimes hard to know where to go and to know you know where to find information, and that's where forums like this are so important. And I just again want to encourage women to just honor where you are in your life, honor the chapter you're in and know that you know you don't have to be what everyone, what you think everyone wants you to be. You can honor the chapter you're in and it's okay. And, and you know, continue to seek out information like what you're sharing today, patty, and it's out there and you know, just keep looking and you'll find what you're looking for. If you have the intention to go, get it, yeah.

Speaker 1 51:20

Yeah, very good, thank you, yes, thank you so much, thank you.