Sara Jones: Defying Gravity and Shaping Business Strategy

 Join us for an enlightening conversation with the dynamic Sara Jones, a chemical engineer turned patent lawyer, who now leads the charge in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) consulting with her firm, Inclusion Pro. Sara's transformative journey, inspired in part by the musical Wicked, has led her to become a pivotal force in the DEI space. We explore her fascinating career transition and the influential role she played in founding the Women's Tech Council, where her knack for strategic partnerships and community building first came to light.

This episode unpacks the intricacies of embedding DEI into the core of business strategy, rather than sidelining it as an optional program. Sara shares her insights into the common pitfalls companies face when attempting to integrate DEI and the mindset shift necessary for true transformation. We delve into the legislative impacts on DEI initiatives and the emotional toll they take on the community. Sara's experiences underscore the importance of understanding company culture and how informed engagement and collaboration can navigate the complexities of these challenges.

We also tackle the importance of cultivating cultural and problem-solving skills within organizations, highlighting how a synergistic team environment can drive creativity and innovation. By leveraging DEI principles across all facets of a business, Sara shows how companies can break free from traditional narratives and unlock new opportunities. Through engaging storytelling and a focus on the value of flexibility, this episode is a guide to fostering inclusive environments and empowering leaders to embrace diversity as a transformative business strategy. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast, where we showcase stories, celebrate successes and shift culture. Hello and welcome to another episode of Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast. We have the amazing Sarah Jones with us today. She is I'm going to read it because it's quite a bit she's a chemical engineer, she has a law degree, she's a patent lawyer, she started the Women's Tech Council many, many years ago and she now leads Inclusion Pro, where she consults with companies to strategically implement DEI strategies. So, across the board, she's a dabbler and I love it. I'm so excited to get into this with you. Welcome to the series.

Speaker 2 0:51

Thanks, so happy to be here. And I do need to add one more thought to that career thing. I was also in entrepreneurship and had many failures and successes. So you know, I think when you get old enough you've got the shiny resume and you can highlight all the successes but there's definitely been a bunch of failures mixed in between and learning and yeah, so I just want to mention that.

Speaker 2 1:15

Yeah, I think I mentioned that because I think it's you know, in the type of work that I do, the more business experience you have, the better, which is kind of ironic, right, we tend to think about certain skills that would make you know a DEI consultant, you know what are their core competencies and at least in my line of work, I've just found that the understanding of how business works is one of the key things that you need to definitely understand to be successful.

Speaker 1 1:46

Yeah, like the drivers of it yeah.

Speaker 2 1:49

How to talk like an executive. What do they care about, right? Just all of those things to really get that alignment within an organization.

Speaker 1 1:57

Yeah, so one thing we ask guests because we I love that you said shiny and, like you know, you've done it but we also love a personal side. So could you share something personal, like favorite movie, book, an experience you had? We've had all kinds of things.

Speaker 2 2:13

This is so timely because, I got to see an early screening of Wicked last night.

Speaker 1 2:22

Yay, who are you singing? That's the real question.

Speaker 2 2:26

I was struggling. And then I was struggling not to applaud after every song and I thought, okay, but this is an early screening, Maybe they'll applaud. And they didn't. They only applauded at the end. Oh man.

Speaker 1 2:38

But I was just like oh.

Speaker 2 2:39

So I don't know. I don't know when this is coming out, but let's normalize applauding for amazing singing talent on a screen when it happens. Yes.

Speaker 1 2:49

I don't know.

Speaker 2 2:50

But I'll just tell you a relevant story to my career, and one of the sort of defining moments of my career was when I was trying to decide whether to leave law and do something else and I actually saw Wicked in Chicago live and I mean that intermission Defying Gravity blew me away and it like broke my brain, something unlocked in me and I just it was so unforgettable and the words kept going around and around and around in my head and I just thought why am I still right?

Speaker 2 3:28

like it's time to defy gravity, and it just kind of became an anthem for my life. Um, when we did the first women tech awards, it was still on my mind that I was still at the law firm, by the way and uh, so you stayed in your job, but then you just started dabbling in other things.

Speaker 1 3:43

Is that what you started unlocking?

Speaker 2 3:45

No, no, my dabble was actually growing Women Tech Council, okay, and as you know, as a lawyer, and sort of being raised in sort of a smaller bubble.

Speaker 2 3:54

I didn't realize that I had all these other skills I could do. So Women Tech Council was kind of that training ground to do some different things right. I learned I'm really good at strategic partnerships. I learned I'm really good at building community. I learned I'm really great at messaging, Like all of these things that you don't think of. As a patent attorney, I'm in my office writing about inventions. Where am I going to learn those skills right? So that was the dabbling, but it's just been an anthem. We actually named our Women Tech Awards statue Defying Gravity.

Speaker 1 4:28

You did yeah, because of that song. I love that.

Speaker 2 4:31

That's the back story, Not a lot of people know about that anymore it was so long ago, it was like 17 years ago, but just this idea that we can achieve higher than we thought. So it's always been my, it's always been my musical, my film. I'm just anyway, and John Chu, oh, it's it met every expectation.

Speaker 1 4:51

I love that. Okay, so you're going to see it again? Oh, of course, yes, okay. I saw an interview with those two and it's just their marketing and their messaging is so on point, and as you started to talk, I just started to sing Defying Gravity, right, because that is like you're like possibility.

Speaker 2 5:14

Okay, do you do Alba or do you do Glinda? Oh gosh, Both right, we might have to do it Right Moment, let's do it Okay.

Speaker 1 5:16

My favorite song is the For Good, oh Right, Because it's that tie-in of wow. This has been a little sketchy, but also I've been changed for forever because of what's happened here.

Speaker 2 5:29

OK, so what's a, what's a stanza you want to sing?

Speaker 1 5:32

Oh gosh, I've never been asked to sing on the podcast. You go for it? Oh, I used to sing a long time ago. I used to sing a long time ago, and the ability to have harmonies with different people plays perfectly into this conversation about DEI and team building and finding your spot and where the melody is and how you can come in. So I love that, okay. So, sarah, let's start with Inclusion Pro. Tell us a little bit about that. I love that you take it from a strategy approach, because often it is like a side thing, yeah, yeah. So tell us why that integration is really important for you.

Transforming DEI Strategy for Business Impact

Speaker 2 6:14

Yeah it's. I've observed for just a really really, really long time that we do DEI sort of the wrong way, right the way that we've approached it traditionally, and it's just almost we got to reverse the way we've always done it. And I think you know, I just you know, I think I don't know if it's my entrepreneurial background or what it is, but you know the frustration that we all feel like it's not really making a difference. Well, the reason why is because we're not doing it really in a way that it can make a difference.

Speaker 2 6:46

Right, right, yep, and it feels logical, but but I mean to be real, it is. It is harder to do it the other way, right, and flip it on its head and say, no, we actually want this to make a difference in the way that it's intended, but the approach has to be different. A difference in the way that it's intended, but the approach has to be different. And, of course, as you know, working with the leadership team is the most difficult part of it because, for so many of them, they haven't been exposed to better ways of doing it. They've only been exposed to the old, traditional way. So in their minds, they're doing DEI the way that they have been taught.

Speaker 1 7:26

Yes, we're doing best practices. Yes.

Speaker 2 7:29

Right, and I think that has always sort of held us back a little bit, and so I actually started Inclusion Pro as a. I actually started it as a technology platform first, oh, okay. This is before COVID. Before anything, I thought you know I'm going to try some different approaches. Sure, and I actually created a minimum viable product, had 25 companies tested, of course, right. Following the process and I realized, even though companies say they want to do DI, they care about it, they don't care enough.

Speaker 1 8:03

Right, or it's not consistently top of mind Right, and so it's not consistently top of mind yeah.

Speaker 2 8:07

And we, and it's not like they're bad people, it's just that they feel like what they're doing in their organizations is enough and to adopt this technology would require, you know, additional work. And does it integrate into my HRIS? And I said, well, I mean, you know it's, it's, it's a minimum viable product, like hopefully, yes, someday it will integrate. But, like you know, I'm just testing for value. And you know, I learned a really important entrepreneurial, you know, startup lesson, which is you have to understand the difference between a pain and a vitamin, a pain pill and a vitamin Okay, okay, I was giving them a vitamin, right, and they didn't really need a vitamin. A pain pill and a vitamin Okay, okay, I was giving them a vitamin, right, and they didn't really need a vitamin. Their pain was somewhere else, yes, so then I turned to consulting, which I'm glad I did, because I think consulting you get to get more into the companies, yeah, and really understand their pain points. Yes, much better.

Speaker 1 9:00

Because it's a culture thing.

Speaker 2 9:02

Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean, they're dealing. You know HR leaders tend to get the brunt of DEI work. You know it gets put on them, it's their job and they're struggling just enough to get a seat at the table, even though people are like what the biggest cost to the company? I mean, hi, I know right, it's just so many ironies in life. But you know, and then they're having to do DEI also on top of everything else. Now we'll talk later.

Speaker 2 9:37

I don't think DEI has to sit on the HR team at all, and I think we've just kind of put it there because it's about people. That's right, and that's why I've really shifted to talking about strategy. First, because there's certain things you would never do.

Speaker 2 9:49

There's certain areas of the business you would never treat like that Right, because they are such important strategies and we haven't really, I don't think, brought DEI into the realm of business strategy, and that's where I think the shift needs to happen, because it better connects with what executives care about. It better connects with the purposes of the business. It actually makes DEI much more authentic than a side program.

Speaker 1 10:17

Yeah, right now it's treated like an accessory.

Speaker 2 10:20

Yes, on top of our day jobs right. So when you hear about pain points, one of the things I hear is oh my gosh, we're just so busy doing this, how can we add on DEI? I'm like, well, that tells me a lot about the mindset shift that we need to start to work on, yeah, right. So a lot of times I don't go in and just say let's go and build a program. I say I want to discover your culture first, right.

Speaker 2 10:48

I want to understand what's going on here, because, you know, the things I care about are actual impact, right. So, like even when we started Women Tech Council, back then, when they had women in tech programs, they would kind of grow and then fizzle, grow and then fizzle, right. So maybe they last one or two years, they get a lot of excitement and then they die out, right. And so when we started Women Tech Council, we didn't just launch it, we did a lot of discovery, we did a lot of interviewing. We said how can we make this organization last? For a long time? Sustainability was really important and that's how we crafted the organization. And so DEI is the same thing. We don't spend that time to say what is it that's going to work in our business that we can continue to sustain, instead of adding to and requiring resources and energy that maybe not all of us are sure why Right?

Speaker 1 11:51

The actual impact, the return.

Speaker 2 11:53

Yeah, so I think, yeah, I'll stop there. I've been talking a long time.

Speaker 1 11:58

Well, two thoughts came to my mind. The first is this is exactly why the Elevate Her Challenge is non-prescriptive, right, we don't go in and tell them what to do, because every culture is different and you need to understand their pain points. And then the second thought that came to my mind is so often like a CEO says, yes, let's do an ERG, and then gives it to an HR representative it's usually a woman with no executive oversight. The executive doesn't come to the meeting and the real question is do you have funding? Right? And many times that doesn't happen. So then we're like okay, well, it's not really integrated at all. We need to integrate it. We don't want it just to become a gripe session Like this is actually something that can help the company move forward. And I feel like many people understand the importance of team building, of different perspectives, but somehow when you put that label of DEA on it, people kind of freeze up.

Speaker 2 12:52

Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. So let's use that example, because women's groups have been around for a very, very very long time.

Speaker 2 13:00

Some done well, some not done well, but when you put the layer of strategy on it, it can become something very different. So I'm just going to illustrate an example. Okay, so I was consulting one company. We've got an executive team, mostly white men, very open to executive coaching sessions so we would meet with the executive team. They weren't like. You know how sometimes the executives are like well, I got an important meeting, I got a sales deal to wrap this up, do I have to attend? It was not like that at all. It was amazing. It was such a really great self-aware group, right, willing to be vulnerable, willing to, you know, really go into this space of learning, and they actually came up with some really innovative ideas on their own. So what I love seeing is when I can literally just sort of be in the room, yes, and I can just nudge when they need a nudge and create the space, but it's them coming up with the ideas Because we've I don't know, we've created this narrative that white men can't come up with inclusive ideas.

Speaker 2 14:04

Right, they can't understand inclusion. They need someone to teach them what inclusion is. No, we all inherently know what inclusion is. So one of the ideas they came up with was genius and very innovative. They made all of their executive meetings open to the whole company.

Speaker 1 14:23

Very transparent, very transparent, the whole company Very transparent.

Speaker 2 14:26

Very transparent Private company. You can do that right. But here's what's fascinating when we talk about women in leadership, oftentimes we're saying women, you need to gain confidence. Right In my experience, just telling a woman she needs to gain confidence doesn't give them confidence. What builds confidence is the ability for their talents to shine. Yes, when their talents shine, that's what builds confidence. So we kind of do this thing to women, where we assume that they have a deficit to begin with.

Speaker 1 14:58

Yes, the whole. We don't don't come into our programs. We're not trying to fix you. We're not trying to fix you because you're already good.

Speaker 2 15:05

And why do you need a program in the first place if you don't think they have a deficit right? This is kind of the thing we have to start thinking about very carefully, even though back in the day women's groups were very powerful for those of us who feel very isolated. But the root of women's groups came from lack of psychological safety.

Speaker 1 15:24

Amy Edmondson right, she's a psychologist who started that. Yeah, psychological safety is so huge. I think I took this right off your website that inclusive leaders are 62% more likely to become C-suite leaders.

Speaker 2 15:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:40

And I think in my experience dealing with leaders is it's the people who know how to create safety right, because then everyone can show up and then creativity flows and then your company is better.

Speaker 2 15:51

Yes, yeah, and this is, you know, again on an example of women's groups not done. Well, you know, when a man tries to join, women get upset and they say, no, this is the only safe space in the company. And I'll tell those executives. That's really important feedback because the women's group's never going to make your company psychologically safe. If they're separated. Well, just if women are expressing that that's the only safe space they have. But doing an ERG is not going to change your culture. It's simply not.

Speaker 2 16:19

And we sometimes look to these ERGs and we put too much on our expectations are too high on what they can do. Right. So an executive's like, oh my gosh, I'm so great, I just let them do a women's group. Okay, that's kind of condescending right, yep, I let them Yep. So let's say this company. Now, they didn't ever do a women's group, because I don't go in and say, oh, the first thing you do is where's your ERGs? Right?

Speaker 2 16:44

I actually I have to say I've never I've consulted on what the foundations of a great ERG, but I've never worked with a client to build one.

Speaker 1 16:56

Well, I love that because you want them to have buy-in right. This is like teenage psychology, spouse psychology, if they think they've come up with it.

Speaker 2 17:04

Well, my question to them is why do you need one? Okay, and if they don't? Know and if you don't know and if you don't need one, you can do DEI without ERGs. Yes, Right and no offense to women's groups.

Speaker 1 17:16

No, of course not.

Speaker 2 17:17

But you can do DEI without them and we've kind of got locked into this, like okay, like, oh, this is how you do dei. Now there's nothing wrong with them. And if your organization chooses to do them, be very intentional about why, right. So let's say, for example, this company who um expose or makes available this opportunity for any employee, yeah to to watch the executive team and even submit anonymous questions. Let's say, right, okay, that's huge. If I had a women's group, I wouldn't do a training, I wouldn't do a book group, I wouldn't do that. I'd say, hey, let's talk about the last executive meeting. What questions did you have? What ideas did you have they didn't think of. Because, now, what a great learning experience to address any knowledge gaps.

Speaker 1 18:01

Yeah or misalignment.

Speaker 2 18:03

Yes, because we know from the research that women are less likely to be mentored into the actual strategy. They're less likely to be mentored into the business. That's why we don't see as many promotions. Yep, it's not because of lack of confidence. Most women are very competent and very conscientious. I can see that. Yep, and so see how this more naturally and authentically fills an important research gap that we know and understand, but it feels more authentic and natural. What questions do you have and what ideas did you have that they didn't think of?

Speaker 1 18:40

Yes.

Speaker 2 18:41

Yep, right, think of yes, right Now you're allowing them to learn but also share ideas, and you're engaging them in the business, in, in, in in the business conversation and the business strategy. So, and they never did a women's group. But but see, that's where my mind goes when we talk about a more strategically integrated approach, where it doesn't feel unnatural and it's fully connected, right? So now we've got this fully connected double loop learning as well as double loop.

Speaker 1 19:11

Ideation and feedback is huge yeah.

Speaker 2 19:15

So I think that's you know, if there's any you know charge. I would say to anyone doing a you know affinity group or ERG, it would be craft them so that their talents shine right. That's what those spaces should be used for and that those talents are shining and surfacing to folks so that we can make sure the right narratives are happening within the workplace.

Speaker 1 19:40

Yes, and some companies are doing that, really, really well and they seem to be exponentially growing.

Speaker 1 19:48

So when we do our programs and we say what are the things that you're hoping to gain, so much so especially just this last year is strategy. So it's really interesting you talked about that, because one thing we talk about a lot on here is women need the opportunity to practice leadership when it's not such high stakes because, like you said in the very beginning, it's about learning, it's about failing, it's about alignment, it's about listening. Did I hear what you said right, like, how does this impact what we're doing? I think that's really important for women to be able to do that and align with.

Speaker 2 20:23

Can I tell you a funny story?

Speaker 1 20:24

Yeah please.

Speaker 2 20:26

This is back in the early days when Pat found a women leadership institute and she brought in a leadership expert. Okay, and he was really excited to share this data. Okay, and he said our research has shown that women either match or exceed men in all the core leadership competencies.

Speaker 1 20:48

Jack Zanger. Was it Jack Zanger? Yeah, okay, except strategy, yes.

Speaker 2 20:53

Okay, my alarm bells went off and then he said they show strategic competency around age 40. And so I don't know if Pat remembers this, but I started asking him questions. I bet you did, because this is what we continue, right, that narrative women are not strategic until they're age 40.

Speaker 2 21:17

Ooh, let's not put that out there. Let's instead train people to see strategic thinking in the different ways it shows up. Who is he asking? Is it men? Who's your data set? Yeah, Because, if their perception and if their bias right Because I hear this all the time All the women will come to me and say I can't get promoted because they say I'm not strategic enough. Well, what does?

Speaker 1 21:38

that mean? I mean, then they should be asking them what does that mean, right? Yes, I mean, then they should be asking him what does that mean, right?

Speaker 2 21:45

Yes, they should be clarifying what people think that means and I just yeah, and so you know, and it's just a funny story that I remember because, yeah, women are capable Right In every single way that men are, but it's the perception and his data captured the perception, yeah, but it was not actual fact or truth, and I think that's why we have to be really careful.

Speaker 1 22:06

Right. Well, like we were talking about before we started, data can be slanted however you like.

Speaker 2 22:12

Absolutely Right.

Speaker 1 22:13

Which is why it's both a blessing and a curse. So let's oh, I love the topic of psychological safety, but let's move on to your DEI Pulse Check, oh okay, great.

Speaker 2 22:25

Yeah, let's bridge to other data.

Speaker 1 22:27

Yeah, okay, cool. So I'll let you explain how this came about and a little bit of what it is, and then I've got a couple of questions for you.

Speaker 2 22:35

Yeah Well, hopefully most folks listening or reading to this are familiar with the legislation that happened at the beginning of the year yes.

Speaker 2 22:46

And it wasn't that. I think we didn't know it was going to happen. I think there was some frustration from the business leader side that you know we weren't really at the table. Right, and I can understand from legislators. They're like it's a public, it's about public offices, it doesn't concern you, right, and I could totally see legislators they're like it's about public offices, it doesn't concern you, right, and I could totally see them saying that in their minds. Right, but the reality is none of us live in a bubble. Right, we're an ecosystem, that's right. What happens in higher ed, what happens in K-12, what happens in our government it all affects business.

Speaker 1 23:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:17

Right and so, yeah, we were shocked that it passed so easily and without really much debate and there were efforts to communicate the broader impacts Absolutely. I'm sure which would you know, many unintentional impacts as well. Right, I don't think they actually intended to kill all of these, you know, like the Women's Center at the University of Utah. I don't think the legislators were like, yes, let's do that, but it happened.

Speaker 1 23:44

Not all do that, but it happened. Not all of them, but it happened.

Speaker 2 23:47

And it's really, really sad that so much of these efforts that Utah was behind, that they supported, could just so easily be undone like overnight right, really devastating. But I you know the DEI community, as you can imagine, was very caused a lot of emotions for us, right.

Speaker 2 24:08

And I feel like we felt very abandoned, very sort of alone and isolated. And what does this mean? What does this mean? And so I thought it might be good to gather some data to just say, okay, are the, are the impacts as bad as we really think? They are Right.

Speaker 1 24:26

Right.

Speaker 2 24:27

Yeah, is it perception what's really happening? And so that's why I did my first study, uh, pushed out the survey in February because it was still during the legislative session, but they, they signed the bill, like in January. So I pushed, pushed out the um first DEI pulse check in January, in January, and got perspectives from many different sectors so not just business, it was nonprofit, government, higher ed, public and so wanted to just kind of see the difference across different sectors of what was going to happen. Right, because the bill was specifically for higher ed. No, no, no, it was for no, it was higher ed, government offices and K-12. Okay, because original, the first version last time that they blocked was only higher ed Okay.

Speaker 1 25:12

And then they went to interim session and they blew it up, okay, and they made it much bigger and broader. And the question was, even though it didn't impact businesses, I don't think they got that message. Actually, it did impact businesses. Let't think they got that message actually it did impact businesses.

Speaker 2 25:24

Let me explain why okay there's language in it and I the challenge is. The title said equal opportunity, so everybody's like well, that's a good bill, okay, right, okay, so context context yeah, you have to actually read the language. Yeah, and a lot of people don't know read the language. They read the summary that like this is better for Utah Right and they say, okay, can't be that bad.

Speaker 1 25:47

But then read the language yes, and we have to remind people you're a chemical engineer and a patent lawyer. So I've tried to go in and read bills. I've read different bills and they're not meant to be easy.

Speaker 2 25:57

They're not meant to be easy, but here's the thing is people you know, reach out to the people who are watching the bills.

Speaker 1 26:04

Yes, and who know and?

Speaker 2 26:06

who know and can help inform you.

Speaker 1 26:07

I've done that as well.

Speaker 2 26:08

Yeah, you know, even on equal rights bills and things like that, that I don't completely understand. I've called up friends, yes, that I know are very knowledgeable, so do know, tell me what this is about, right? And so I think, even if reading through bills is and that slog is not fun for anyone, by the way, it's not even for me but the bill has language that covers higher ed employee behavior. It doesn't cover private industry behavior, it's the public employees. So they say if you participate in any program event, training, blah, blah, blah huge laundry list of activity based on personal identity. Okay, so let's bring this to Women Leadership Institute, right? You go to a higher ed employee and you said can you speak at my event for women leaders? Yeah, okay, the language of the bill literally covers that. If they are representing the higher ed institution, it literally covers that.

Speaker 1 27:11

I see.

Speaker 2 27:12

Right, and the struggle for me is those are our private-public partnerships. Those are the things that actually keep Utah running, that keep us connected and strengthen our economy. And there's language that literally has a chilling effect on employees who participate and, I think, based on personal identity, know, participate in anything based on personal identity right, if they do a veterans event, if they do, I mean the list could go on and on and on right.

Speaker 2 27:52

It's very broad language, but that's the plain language of the statute. That was enacted, I see Okay, is it enforceable? I have no idea if they're going to enforce that Right, but the thing that folks are missing is that they literally did cover behavior that impacts private business and all the ways that we want. So if I went and said, hey, I want to do a recruiting event and I would like to take your women engineers to lunch, you can't do that based on the language, because a higher ed employee unless you work through like an independent student club maybe, but a higher ed employee would have to, like post posters, send out an email, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 28:30

That behavior is covered by the statute. Wow Interesting. I did not realize that.

Speaker 2 28:36

This is why people, I was trying to raise the alarm bells and I'm like friends, this is way broader than I love that.

Speaker 1 28:43

You called it the unintended consequences of oh yeah, that sounds fine, that sounds good, but then the unintended consequence is are these specific details and, like you said before, I love your approach of the only way we're going to fix this is a full ecosystem right, all of us working together private business, higher ed, like it's in all of it. So we got to work together.

DEI Trends and Strategic Transformation

Speaker 2 29:07

Yeah, what I think we have to be careful of I was just mentioning this to Clint on Silicon Slopes last time was you know? I think you know we have to be very careful about shifting too much of this to private businesses. I mean, we're already busy enough.

Speaker 1 29:22

I thought that was an interesting conversation. Yeah, who owns this? Why is it our job of this to private businesses? I mean, we're already busy enough trying to keep our businesses alive. Who owns this? Why is it our job? Why, if business can step in, should they? Is it their job?

Speaker 2 29:30

I mean, we care because we know how it helps our businesses, right, but I don't think it's quite fair to take all of that cultural and the ability to see different perspectives and to be able to, you know, all of that challenging our thinking, right, that shouldn't just happen in the workplace, right, and it's a core skill, frankly. It's a core problem-solving skill. When we think about, you know, business and the problems that we're trying to solve, they're not just Utah problems, they're global problems. Sure, right, and we want our talent to come in, right, having these skills, yep, and it's going to make them more likely to hold a job where they can really demonstrate value.

Speaker 1 30:15

Right, hmm, yeah, it's so nuanced and layered isn't it Wow. Okay, so from your data that you've got, because you've done it twice in February and then again was it just last month- I did.

Speaker 2 30:28

Yeah, I just released the second one in September because the bill it went in effect in July. So I was like, okay, after the summer's over, we're going to do a second version of this six months later and do a six month. Hey, what's happened? What's really happened this time I added a bunch of benchmarks, not just, hey, what's the negativity, you know, temperature, that sort of thing. I added a bunch of benchmarks to it because I thought like, if we're going to do this work and I asked a bunch of you know folks, how could this be more useful? And so they did ask for more benchmarks and things like that, which again was fascinating to me. And just a couple things is, it was anonymous, so it's not like I went to the companies and had the executive responding, so I didn't have control necessarily of who was responding, and it is possible that more than one person from an organization responded, to be fair. So just kind of caveat on the data, it's a pulse check.

Speaker 1 31:30

It's not a research study, and so for you data quants out there that are like where's the R value?

Speaker 2 31:33

all of the plus or minus stuff that's not going to. This is not going to be that for you. All right, so what? Let's see what would be helpful for you. I mean, it's quite an extensive report, so let me tell you some of the things I pulled out.

Speaker 1 31:50

Yeah, the thing that the first thing that caught me is we've talked about the unintended consequences and three of them that I noticed that came up in the pulse check was one long-term talent pipeline right, because we're always concerned about the pipeline getting talent in it and being able to move through that and you just spoke to that right, bringing people in understanding what that is. The second I thought was so interesting cancellation of networking and events. So, again, like what an accessory piece, not a strategy piece. And then the third, abandonment of spaces and resources. That really hit me because I teach at Weber and they had a whole section that's just now abandoned. Nobody's in there and it's sad, right, because people would go there for support and I don't care why you go for support, but everybody needs support. So that one also caught my eye. A lot of abandonment of spaces and resources, I don't know. So those are a couple of things that stood out to me.

Speaker 2 32:55

Yeah, there was quite a, you know quite a few lesser stances. I mean, I think generally, just anecdotally, we've seen a lot of DEI leaders be let go from their jobs. Yes, and some of them voluntarily transitioned. So it's not I'm not saying they were all let go of hire, but I'm just saying they may have seen, like the writing, on the wall or whatever.

Speaker 1 33:16

There was definitely a shift.

Speaker 2 33:17

Just, there was definitely a shift. So when we talk about sort of talent, that way too it's challenging because we need to strengthen our bench with folks that do understand how DEI can strategically be done. And that takes time, Like you know people will come to me and say, well, how do I be a DEI consultant? And I'm like, do you got 20 years? Like I mean, you don't. Just you know, you can't just hold out a shingle and say, well, I want to keep executives accountable.

Speaker 1 33:44

Right.

Speaker 2 33:44

Because I'll tell you one thing executives don't want to be held accountable by someone on the outside.

Speaker 1 33:48

They're executives for a reason.

Speaker 2 33:49

Yeah, like that's not really going to work. Yeah, but you know building these competencies of knowing how to do, you know strategic transformation in organizations. That is a true skill set.

Speaker 1 34:04

Yes, transformation, and so if folks leave.

Speaker 2 34:06

Where are they going to learn that right? Well, hopefully they'll continue to learn it in other ways, like I did. Right, I didn't build my career as a DEI consultant. No, yeah, I learned it and then applied those skills to a specific area that I have, a specific core competency. But I actually do broader strategy too. So people think I only do DEI consulting. I actually do a lot of just broader organizational strategy growth plans, executive coaching, that sort of speaking coaching, which is the fun thing that.

Speaker 2 34:35

I get to do in my life. But the other thing that struck me on the data is we asked for team size, we asked for revenue, we asked for employee size, because the revenue, employee size don't always match Right, and so I kind of slice those type of data a lot of different ways. And what was very fascinating this is why, when you can look at it, many different ways, people would report really large DEI team size different ways. People would report really large DEI team size but then really small DEI budget sizes and I thought, okay, there may be a couple things happening and really data for me is it gets you thinking. It gets you thinking either the company is having people do a lot of free labor If your DEI team's that size with, let's say, a $10,000 budget, okay.

Speaker 2 35:24

Or maybe the DEI team doesn't actually know what's being spent. Or maybe it's not a specific DEI budget, maybe it's being pulled out of HR or operations some other thing, right? Or that they're underreporting the budget, right, so somebody could look at that and they could draw an oval and be like well, based on this data, this is what we're going to spend, because this is what other Utah companies are spending. You know companies in Utah, even if they're headquartered outside of Utah. Right, this is what they're spending. I actually think it's underreported. Yeah, probably so.

Speaker 1 35:57

Right.

Speaker 2 35:58

Because I asked. I said, OK, you've got to include headcount, or you, you got to include your salaries in there too. So if I've got a data team of four, I should be seeing at least $500,000 in budget right To keep those folks employed. So so I think, just be very careful. These are the reported numbers, but I don't. It's really.

Speaker 1 36:20

You know, you got to just be very careful with how you use the data, or even just show that we tend to under-report DEI budget numbers and I love your idea of approaching it not as a checkmark or look at this, but rather with curiosity to start the conversation, to start thinking about the different ways that it might apply to the company.

Speaker 2 36:42

There's a number of trends that I showed and so there's a lot of trending maps. So the trending maps were interesting for me because you could see things such as we asked are you required by federal law to report DEI data? It might be EOC, whatever. Well, if you look at the trends based on certain cultural factors, like how engaged is my organization in DEI? How respected are the DEI leaders? How much do I trust the leadership that they're really committed? Just having EEO, just having civil rights at your organization, it's consistent across all Likert of zero to five. Okay, right, so it tells me that you can have a civil rights person you can be tracking. Eeo data Doesn't mean you're engaged in DEI. Yes, right.

Speaker 1 37:35

Yes.

Speaker 2 37:35

Because the numbers are really even across the board. Yeah, you've got to be doing something more, and this is why DEI tends to be a compliance measure, mm-hmm. But people who feel like you're engaged, you're doing something else. You're doing something above and beyond, much more in the leadership realm.

Speaker 1 37:52

Yes, yes. So I wrote down because in your interview with Clint, you said something that I loved. If we believe in diversity, what behavior are we expecting? Right, because it's not a compliance issue, it's actually a mindset issue. It's a transformation of thinking and seeing and perspective, and those are two, like you said, different skill sets. Those are two approaches to making it happen. So I really loved that. About what behavior are we expecting to making it happen. So I really loved that. About what behavior are we expecting?

Speaker 1 38:27

You know, as we look at the data you've taken in the polls, check as we think about how DEI is integrating, or team building, or safety, or whatever we want to call it, I'm interested. I'm going to pivot just a little bit. I'm interested in two things as we wrap up here. First, for those people who are ahead of an ERG or just trying to work their way up and figure out the company landscape, all the said and unsaid things, right, that come with this, when you're in the middle, what do you do? Because sometimes it's easier to do things down than it is to go up. So what would your advice be for particularly women in that situation?

Speaker 2 39:11

Yeah, I think this is where we get to put on our strategy hats. Okay, and I did a series called Strategy First, dei and anyone who is mid or even executives. It's really an executive skill set, I think is we do not need a program to have an inclusion lens, okay, right. So again, it's a mindset issue. When we have an inclusion lens, it deepens our thinking around real strategy. Okay, what I work on most is getting this thinking into actual business strategy. Okay, what I work on most is getting this thinking into actual business strategy. So, so there's sort of people programs, yeah, but what about product? What about sales? What about customer experience? What about all these things that are your actual business? Absolutely Right, you've got KPIs. You've got business objectives. Right, you've got a 2025 business plan. I can kind of tell the clients who understand this and who don't. The ones who expose me to their strategy, they understand this. The ones that only keep me working with their people team don't understand this right when you get into the business side.

Speaker 2 40:20

That's where the exciting things happen, um, and I think that it's sort of like, when you build this competency, like people will say, for example, you know, at one company I hired the most diverse team at the company, they're like, oh my gosh, you have the most diverse team. I'm like, well, yeah, because the lens wasn't, I'm going to hire a bunch of different people with identity. Right, I'm going to really focus on the skills that I need. Right, people with identity. I'm going to really focus on the skills that I need to make this important project happen.

Speaker 1 40:46

Which is like a very human thing, right?

Speaker 2 40:49

Yes, and I just naturally yes, and what's interesting is, I didn't even know any of these folks before.

Speaker 2 40:57

So it's not that it's not possible to hire a diverse team, you don't have to have the network. But there's something about the lens that I've been able to apply where, where it's just. I have it because I practice it so much that it comes naturally and I think it opens up to much more creativity, yeah, and much more you know, better problem solving right, and I think every man, every business can benefit from that, every strategy can benefit that, from that, and it's so much easier than I think people think it is and we think, oh my gosh, we have to put out this big initiative. No, I mean, I'm here to tell you you can actually start today.

Speaker 1 41:32

Yes, like today what could they do?

Speaker 2 41:35

Right, and you can look at the problems that you're trying to solve right.

Speaker 2 41:38

And you can apply this lens and you can start asking the right questions to really surface the great ideas. So, for example, I'll apply an inclusion lens in a first executive meeting with folks. You know when I'm first working with them, they come up with great ideas and I'm not saying, and my rule is when I do this exercise with them I say okay, but the only rule is you cannot apply this lens to HR, you have to apply it to some other area.

Speaker 2 42:08

Meaning they can't like say HR is going to do this or what, or they're immediately going to think of DEI. Right, because I'm DEI, I already know what people assume DEI is when I get in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm there to push their thinking, I'm there to say sure we're not siloing this.

Speaker 1 42:24

We've always thought of DEI as HR. I'm going to challenge you not to think of that. No, because it's too easy, because it creates better products if you know who's using the product, if you know how they're going to use it and different people use it differently. So it just seems like a no-brainer that it's strategy.

Speaker 2 42:34

It seems like a no-brainer, but again, the narratives of what DEI is are so locked in there that you got to work to unlock it Right and you have to say, okay, I'm going to help reframe this and also it gives them an out right Because they can say we did it, we did it and also it's not my responsibility. I'm in a different department, but DEI is HR, so I'm going to tell HR what, what needs to happen, right, yeah, and, and, and, then, and. Then we leave sort of reinforcing the same things we've always reinforced for decades, and real change, real transformation doesn't happen. And then HR is feeling incredibly burdened. Right, yes, and so, and so, anyway, there's ways to do this that are I think there's ways to do this, I think, that are really interesting, innovative, fun, creative. Yeah, that's the space I love to operate in.

Speaker 1 43:29

That's the good space, that's the space and when.

Speaker 2 43:30

I get people that want to work in that space. It is so much fun, much fun. So, even as difficult as this time has been, I've been able to find people that are like, want to work with me, and say hey, hey, give us a different way of looking at this. Who are?

Speaker 1 43:45

open. Yeah, so I have a question, because one of the things that we found right we work with companies who are really well-established, but we've part of this being here at Silicon Slopes and doing this and working with founders and startups is, from the beginning, having this lens Right and keeping this lens of. We want to build a better product, ok, well, who's using the product? How do they use it? What do you know? From the ground up. Instead of building your company and then saying, oh, let's do this DEI thing or whatever this looks like Right, we want to build it from the ground up. Have you in your experience? Have you seen that founders are more open to that, startups are more open to that? Or really, across the board is the same?

Speaker 2 44:29

You know it's, I have been in the entrepreneurial space and I just have a lot of empathy for how they just have so much they have to think about. So much and so to be fair, right, I think it's easy in theory to say start early because it's harder yeah.

Innovative Approaches in DEI

Speaker 2 44:44

Because I have heard, you know, founders say well, gosh, I just can't even think about this until we're at 100 people. Well, that tells me they're thinking of more traditional approach to DEI, right? Yes, absolutely. And what's kind of ironic is founders are much more open-minded to begin with. That's why they go into startups right, yeah, exactly. Because they're like hey, there's a different way to do this.

Speaker 2 45:04

So, in theory, you would think that their minds are so open. But I think it's the same thing with executives they have so many things they're thinking about that if they feel like there's one more thing, I need to add.

Speaker 2 45:19

That's where it just it's kind of a challenge. So, yeah, I'm not, as I mean, look, there's great examples of founding teams that have been able to do this from the beginning, right. And I think it has to do with they've built a set of core values and how they work together, that it's more naturally generated that type of thinking so it can be done, and I've seen really great examples of it. I don't think it's necessary going to be done with a founding team that sort of operates one way. Now you say hey, but but you know, here's how you should be doing it. And they're like I, I got to go raise money, right. Same with an executive team, right. And when I'm working as executive team, if it's highly dysfunctional, no, not the right time to be doing DEI.

Speaker 1 46:07

Right.

Speaker 2 46:08

No, I'm like, can you you?

Speaker 1 46:10

know, because there's a certain synergy that has to happen and be seen.

Speaker 2 46:13

Yeah, right, and I'm looking for a certain level of trust, of vulnerability right and that they, you know, genuinely like and respect each other right 100%. And so yeah, I think it's just every group is going to approach it a little bit different. But back to your original question. Yes, it can be done from the very beginning, okay.

Speaker 1 46:33

Absolutely so. I want to end on storytelling because you are a coach. Are was still are.

Speaker 2 46:42

I still am Okay For TEDx as far as I know. Maybe they kicked me out.

Speaker 1 46:47

But from a marketing perspective I'm a marketer I believe that everything has some slant. Messaging is so important in whatever you do. So in this realm of inclusion, of transformation, what is the story you hope sticks, what is the message you hope sticks, Whether it's the lady in middle management who's leading the ERG, if the CEO like, what is the story you hope sticks as we move forward in this opportunity to create safety and strategy?

Speaker 2 47:23

I think there is still a lot of opportunity for innovation in DEI. Okay, and you know, we've learned a lot of important lessons, so everybody needs to understand we have had many evolutions of DEI, of dei, yeah, okay, thank goodness we're not back in the civil rights area, thank goodness, we have made some progress but?

Speaker 2 47:47

but to not get stuck and to not think, oh, there's only one way, or that's the right way, or whatever. Um, that is not my lived experience and I think, if we can stay open to searching for new ways, new ideas, new approaches, new words, right, new messaging, that we will continue to move the needle for anyone who cares about this. We will continue to move the needle, but I think we have to be very cautious of looking at someone else's approach and saying, huh, you know, that's not the right way to do it, right.

Speaker 2 48:25

Right, I think we need to be very cautious. That's a very scarcity. Yes, yeah, yes, there are many, many different approaches, and I think it's a matter of finding what works for your organization Right and then finding the way. How do we know it's working? It's always that question.

Speaker 1 48:39

How do?

Speaker 2 48:40

we know it's actually working and being willing to ask the question and, if it's not working, being willing to say pivot, just like you know the same principles of entrepreneurship and leadership, totally Pivot, right. Have a bigger vision. Who are the right stakeholders? All of those things. Vision, who are the right stakeholders? All of those things.

Speaker 2 49:05

But I have to just say that I have exercised more creativity the past few years than maybe in other areas of my career, and it's because I think there's something special about Utah where, despite all the challenges, we have such an interesting Utah's, an interesting innovation lab. Yes, for lack of a better word, right, it's challenging. And because we have these really unique challenges, we have to be really creative. Those of us in this space have to be very creative because we know we're not just going to be invited into the room, right. So this is the same challenge when we started Women Tech Council right? How do we bring the men to the table? How do we have them leave having a great experience with us, so they're not scared of us? Those are lessons I learned way early on, because I can do my best work if I'm invited back. And you keep getting invited back, you keep getting invited back.

Speaker 1 49:54

It's about safety, right Safety.

Speaker 2 49:56

And because you continue to add value and add value. So that's that's the challenge of DEI leaders, or anyone in this is you. The challenge for you is to demonstrate how does inclusion create value for your organization, because that is something that will always resonate up and down the board right, and that is that is the essential. There are many, many, many ways to do that.

Speaker 1 50:17

I'm sure I haven't thought of all the ways I'm thinking. There's so many ways to create value. So back to your point of like no one person has a corner on the market Right, because there are many ways to do this.

Speaker 2 50:27

And back to the conversation of the whole ecosystem working together and we have to let people do this, because if we look at a company, we say, well, where's their ERG? They must not care about DEI, right? Well, they might be doing a lot of stuff on the inside. You have no idea.

Speaker 1 50:46

Yeah, sometimes people flip right into bitter or judgmental Judgmental, get burned out like really pushed back. But I think the other thing to say is just it's a long haul. It doesn't change overnight, overnight like you're not going to come in and like, blow things up and it's going to be better, like it's a lot of actually I recommend you don't blow things up, right? Because and if you want to like, talk to your other friend who wants to blow things up and then go and have a real conversation, right?

Speaker 2 51:12

well, the question is are you going to be invited back? Right, yeah, right, and I think that's the challenge. Is in fear. We all want to disrupt everything. Yeah, but like there's a reality to it.

Speaker 1 51:24

Yes.

Speaker 2 51:24

Right, absolutely, and we can do our best work when people want to hear what we have to say, when they know that when we say it, we genuinely are interested in their success. We're not there to pull them down. We're not there to pull them down. We're not there to put them in their place.

Speaker 1 51:40

We actually want them to succeed and bridging that, especially given the context that immediate trust isn't there, and so we've got to work to build that trust. Yeah, I think that is a great place to end on. Yeah, that's great. Anything else you want this audience to know?

Speaker 2 51:58

So much experience, so many things I'm always open to feedback, Okay, and I would say I'm always open to very innovative ways of doing DEI. I started a series this year, just my Inclusion to Innovation series, and started to kind of highlight really interesting people who aren't quote-unquote DEI experts, but it shows up in the way they have made certain business decisions. It's super cool and so if anyone has an example, maybe you know.

Speaker 2 52:26

I'll do a podcast with them and and highlight them. It was just something that I did to just kind of bring back the positivity yeah, the good news Right that that of course, there's a bright side to inclusion, it's not all negative and it's not all going to destroy your company. There's real value to be had and we've got to talk about that more and remind people Instead of the fear of yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 52:49

Nothing to be afraid of, right, no, absolutely not. And everything to gain, yes, right, okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it, thanks.

Speaker 2 52:57

Patty, it was a pleasure.

Speaker 1 53:00

Okay, so we hope that you defy gravity. And this is a little bonus clip of us singing a little from the song.

Speaker 2 53:07

Be easy on us.

Speaker 1 53:08

Yeah, be easy on us.

Speaker 2 53:09

Okay, ready, okay, yep, I hope you're happy. I hope you're happy too.

Speaker 1 53:16

I hope you're proud of how you would grovel in submission to feed your own ambition.

Speaker 2 53:22

So, though, I can't imagine how I hope you're happy right now. Elfie, listen to me.

Speaker 1 53:34

Just say you're sorry.

Speaker 2 53:35

You can still be with the wizard, what you've worked for and waited for. You can have all you ever wanted, I know, but I don't want it.

Speaker 1 53:51

No, I can't want it anymore anymore. Nice job, all right, thank you everybody. We'll catch you next time.