Alex Adema & Erin Pugmire: Stories of Growth, Tradition and Innovation

Join us on this episode as we sit down with Erin Pugmire and Alex Adema from Sidewinders. Erin shares her journey growing up in the typically male-dominated hydropower industry. Alex, who went from upstate New York to Utah, reveals his COO experiences and involvement with the Women's Leadership Institute. Together, they provide a fascinating glimpse into the dynamics of this niche market. Hear firsthand how Sidewinders fosters a supportive and inclusive work environment, honoring past legacies while embracing future innovations.

We also explore men's critical role in advocating for women's leadership within male-dominated industries. Erin and Alex open up about their experiences with imposter syndrome and the importance of inclusive dialogue and mutual respect. Learn how continuous learning, collaboration, and maintaining credibility can elevate an entire organization. 

This is more than just a discussion of leadership; it's a testament to the power of collective efforts to promote gender diversity and inclusion.

www.wliut.com
@utwomenleaders

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Elevate, a Women's Leadership Institute podcast, where we showcase stories, celebrate successes and shift culture. Hello and welcome to another episode of Elevate, a Women's Leadership podcast Today. I'm always grateful for our guests. We have Erin Pugmire and also Alex Adama from Sidewinders, and I'd like to just jump into it because I'm excited for our conversation to have both of you. I respect both of you and you have such different personalities that I'm excited to see how this intertwines and instructs us today. So I'll let you both briefly introduce yourselves. Tell us who you are, tell us the roles you have in Sidewinders, maybe a little bit about Sidewinders. And then also I'd love you to share, like a personal fact, something we may not know about you. Like I love to walk barefoot in the grass. It's my favorite thing. That was my first email handle. Like it makes me very happy to be able to walk barefoot in the grass. So, yeah, anything along those lines. All right, erin, let's start with you.

Speaker 3 1:07

That is so cool Barefoot in the grass, it calms me. So you like grounding?

Speaker 1 1:12

Yes.

Speaker 3 1:13

That's cool. It grounds me. That's a really cool fact.

Speaker 2 1:17

I think there's a Better Than Ezra song that talks about that you need to look that up.

Speaker 1 1:20

Okay, I could have a theme song yeah, I like that. That's awesome. I love that.

Speaker 3 1:30

I didn't know that about you. I love that. Um, I'm 25. Just kidding, no, I'm. I'm 45. Um, I have three kids, uh, twins that are 23, marshall and Madison, and Gracie, who's 18. Um, I've been married for 25 years. In September Congratulations. I know it's been really hard.

Speaker 1 1:54

Shout out to her partner.

Speaker 3 1:55

Shout out to Dana West Valley Police Department I love you, but you're rough. It's been hard, it's been fun, it's been easy, it's been. All the emotions, as you know being married is, or just spending your life with someone, um, anyway, I'm super excited about this, so thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 2:18

Uh so, alex, Adam, I have, as you mentioned, um been in Utah now for close to 10 years, relocated out here from upstate New York to join a ski manufacturing company at that time. In the recent last year and a half or so I transitioned and now I've been working for Sidewinders so I joined as the COO last year. We're a woman-led CEO and family-founded company. About eight years ago in Salt Lake we work in hydropower generation, refurbishment, repair and Erin kind of sold herself short there. But we have a really cool state-of-the-art facility, a motor shop in Magna that we actually purchased from Erin's father, where she's been having pretty much your whole career, right.

Speaker 2 3:04

Oh yeah, we do a lot of kind of under-the-radar niche work that is worldwide from a hydropower perspective, but also serve a lot of needs in this region. So it's really interesting. It has some ties to renewable energy and things like that, so it's a very interesting industry.

Speaker 2 3:20

A little bit more about myself personally. I have four kids three daughters and a little boy and just kind of navigating that as well and also I've been serving with the Women's Leadership Institute Advisory Board for the last year or two. But I also have been heavily involved with Women's Leadership Institute in my prior job experience with DPS Skis, so it's really fun to kind of be able to translate that and bring that over to Sidewinders, even though we're, I think, already well down the path in terms of some of the things we're doing, but also share a lot of the needs to grow and kind of improve in these ways over the long term too.

Speaker 1 3:55

I love it. Thank you for sharing. I do think Sidewinders is a really interesting both niche and company. Like you said, female founded and led, so I want to get into that in a little bit. Sidewinders is in a male dominated field, so, first of all, it's a juxtaposition that it's led and founded by women, right? What brought you both to this company? I know a little bit about you. Like, you were very deliberate and intentional. Um, when you chose to engage with SignWriters, why was it about that? And, erin, it's your father's company, right? What was that transition like, going from your father to, um, the new leaders? Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 4:42

You can go ahead. You want to go? No, please.

Sustainable Business With Ethical Leadership

Speaker 3 4:45

See, he's so sweet Rock paper scissors. So you're right about this industry it's filled with amazing people. Yeah, the things we do are things that are not easily explained. So when I tell people that we recondition or rewind three-phase motors, they're like well, what's?

Speaker 1 5:08

a three-phase motor. What's a three-phase?

Speaker 3 5:09

motor. What are you doing? Yeah, so if you think about something that's that's running, some running something, it's get feeding power to it. That's that's the equipment that we repair. Um, it is a niche. It's very niche, you're right. And the people in this industry I have never met more amazing people. I love it. That's awesome. I absolutely love it. I just I can't see myself doing anything else.

Speaker 1 5:42

That's great. That's what everybody wants in a job right.

Speaker 3 5:44

Honestly, if you're going to spend time somewhere, make it worth it. Doing anything else, so that's great. That's what everybody wants in a job, right Like I? I honestly, if you're going to spend time somewhere, make it worth it. Yeah, don't go to work. I don't want to be here one more hour. Why am I here? Man, you get to be here. You're here, you're doing it. Do it Like like I don't get that, just like enjoy your time, yeah. So when I go to work I don't feel like I'm at work, I feel like I'm at an extension of my home. I know that seems so strange, but growing up there does it.

Speaker 1 6:16

That helps yeah, let's be honest, is there something particular about Utah and this industry of why it was a smart choice to start this type of industry here, or Well, it's sort of by coincidence, the motor shop was here originally, yep.

Speaker 3 6:32

My dad started it in the early 80s, okay, and he's always been in the industry, so there's not a time I don't remember him not talking about it.

Speaker 2 6:46

And one of our two founders. So Jan and Glenn Peterkin are the founders of our company. Glenn grew up in the UK, actually as an apprentice from an early age of 15, was working around the world for different larger organizations and was actually based in Price, utah for a period of time and then, through a number of circumstances, that led him and Jan to start Sidewinders. So that's kind of how it ended up here in Utah. But you know, there is a big hydropower need throughout the Intermountain West, so it does make sense regionally for us to be here, but it really is a worldwide need too. But it is unique from that standpoint of why we're based here in Utah.

Speaker 1 7:22

Yeah, but I feel like Utah is focusing very much on industries like this right Bringing in more industries, and it falls along with state initiatives too, so I was just curious.

Speaker 2 7:34

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 7:35

Yeah. So I have been impressed with Sidewinder's leadership as I've watched you go through this process and, as Aaron, I've come to learn about you through CDS. How does leadership impact your environment, with the people employed, the types of jobs they have, the company policies? What does that look like?

Speaker 3 7:59

That's a really good question. So when Jan and Glenn purchased the, the shop, they brought aboard martin. He's our shop manager, he's my um, what do you call it? Your cohort, your? Yes, supervisor, I don't know, co-pilot your battle buddy, okay anyway, they said to us do what you need to do. Let's make this shop the premier shop. Let's make it what it deserves to be. Let's build on your dad's legacy.

Speaker 1 8:35

They never put down anything that so they gave you a lot of room previously they weren't like well, your accomplishments were not were nothing.

Speaker 3 8:44

We're coming in. Now they were they were very complimentary to what was there, yeah, and then integrating it with what they wanted to do.

Speaker 1 8:52

I love that we wanted to. When people come in, they, they just scrap everything oh yeah yeah and they always included me.

Speaker 3 9:01

I'm not the most elegant, I don't think I am of a speaker Like I, just I just say whatever comes to my mind, but they've always been very, very supportive and never belittling it's they're, they're unicorns. The three of you are unicorns in my opinion. That's cool. I'm including Alex, yeah.

Speaker 2 9:24

Yeah. Well, we love alex I'm not, I'm not sure. I I guess I'll take that you're a unicorn fly, alex.

Speaker 3 9:30

How about for you, alex?

Speaker 2 9:32

uh, well, it's interesting. This is, um, I've been a few times now at founder-led organizations and I really enjoy that, because you're you're building something from the ground up, but then also trying to find a way to transition it to being a sustainable business, and oftentimes, with entrepreneurial organizations like we have, you really live on the heroics of the entrepreneurs themselves.

Speaker 2 9:55

And that can only take you so far before there's, you know, burnout and limitations and things like that. And so, as far as my experience has gone, you know we have again. We're the benefactors of great expertise and understanding of what it took to build the business to this point. But now there's a great openness to OK, what does it look like to expand the team and sort of bring in that element of organization that helps us be sustainable for the long term and sort of build a strong bench so that we're not always reliant on just the heroics of the entrepreneurs long term? And so that for me it's an enjoyable process to go through.

Speaker 2 10:28

It's a tricky one because you're really kind of maturing into a more mature state, so there's a lot that goes into that, but it's a fun stage for me to be a part of, so I've enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker 1 10:39

Always on that cusp of growth, right, Taking what is good, like you said. And then how do we scale it? How do we make a bigger impact?

Speaker 2 10:48

in what we're doing, yeah.

Speaker 3 10:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 10:51

That's a fun space Because you get like the little bit of the entrepreneurial, the craziness of building the plane as you're flying right that feeling, but also the projection of what does it look like moving forward?

Speaker 2 11:01

Yeah, and as we sit in the Silicon Slopes. You know space. I've spent a lot of time here at the different, you know, friday sessions and things that they do, and it's always interesting to learn about the tech companies because I think people underestimate how that translates to even the manufacturing space, or the service industry that we're in.

Speaker 2 11:17

Things like that I mean a lot of these principles still apply, even if they're faster growth models or different funding models, all those kinds of things. I mean the leadership principles still apply and making these transitions is it's a unique skill set and kind of opportunity for people to experience.

Speaker 1 11:32

Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because sometimes we pigeonhole business into different things, but really the leadership and the business skills are the same right, just in different areas, did you?

Speaker 2 11:43

have something else you wanted to say no, no that's fine, okay, right, just in different areas.

Speaker 1 11:45

Did you have something else you wanted to know? No, no, ok. So, as we talk about leadership, what is your definition of leadership and how has it changed over the years?

Speaker 3 11:55

For me it's, it's lead by action. So if I'm not willing to do something, walking your talk, yeah, ok. And people know, especially men, that if I'm going to ask you to do something, I'm not going to ask you to do something that I haven't already experienced. I'm just not going to do that. And they know that, and it's respected there's a level of credibility.

Speaker 3 12:24

There's credibility. There's a level of credibility. There's credibility, there's a level of I've I've earned that. Um, I've never really experienced. Well, you know what, if I have experienced sexism or whatnot, I really don't mind it. I don't know if that sounds weird. No, like explain why that?

Speaker 1 12:43

is it just kind of?

Leadership Qualities and Team Building

Speaker 3 12:44

rolls off my back. I just don't have time for that. So I don't know. I just lead by example. That's, if you're not willing to do it, don't have someone else do it. And I've. Honestly, the men that work in the shop, they're all willing to do what it takes. There's service over self, all of them. That's huge. It is so big. And I know that sounds dramatic like service over self, but it is. They are all of them.

Speaker 2 13:19

One of the things that I was so pleased with when I first started spending. So we have a couple offices here in Utah. I split time between the shop facility and our office here in Bluffdale, but one of the days I was at the shop. As I walk around sometimes I just kind of ask people what they're doing as I'm learning this industry, and one of the guys was kind of doing a testing setup and I just I was curious what it was, and not, he knew what he was doing but hadn't really explained it to anybody before. And Aaron kind of came in out of nowhere and just was able to totally explain to me all the details of it and I was just like that's pretty cool. Like you, yeah, Not only do you know what, what's going on here, but you're you diminish yourself for not being elegant, but I think you are're right I do that and I'm gonna work.

Speaker 2 14:07

I'm working on that no, that was a good thing.

Speaker 3 14:10

No no, I'm gonna work on not saying that you know just putting myself in these little boxes of not being eloquent, eloquent or like I don't know I I need to work on that and I have been just from meeting Jan and Glenn and Alex. Like they, they say things that I hadn't really thought about, you know.

Speaker 1 14:34

Well, so we've had people on the podcast before and one thing that's come up um is the ability to claim our leadership skills. Right, and it sounds like Alex is saying you have leadership skills, you just need to claim them, saying you have leadership skills, you need to claim them, maybe not fix them yeah, just like them, yeah, and I'm good there.

Speaker 3 14:51

I'm, I'm really good there, but I am self-deprecating and I'm not sure why. So that's something that I'm working on and through, uh, the women's leadership. Actually, I mean, just listening to people speak about why they feel this is something that's happening to, what something we do. It's opened my eyes so much that it's actually made me stop and pause sometimes, think about where I'm going in my mind before I speak. You know, yeah, I think that's great, it's been amazing, and I think that's a skill, right, that's, that's a lot, totally is. I feel like I've got nerves firing in my brain. They're like wait, yeah, don't say that.

Speaker 1 15:35

But whereas at work, this is something you've done, this is something you're credible in, this is something you know, I like that idea of leadership is credibility. Leadership is willing to do whatever it takes and allow others to follow. Yeah, because I think it is a recipe for failure if you ask people to do things you're unwilling to do. Oh man, that doesn't breed loyalty. For sure People can spot a fraud. Yeah, sure, how about you, alex? What's your definition of leadership?

Speaker 2 16:06

I don't know that I have a particular definition, but one thing that has really guided me early on I started I cut my teeth working for a much larger finance banking institution in the East Coast and the leadership guy that was kind of working with us early on in that management program opened my eyes to the concept of you don't know what you don't know. So you know and I think a lot of people are familiar with this, but there are things that you know there are things that you know, you don't know, and you can go and learn those courses, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 16:37

But then there's things you're not even aware, that you're not aware of, and that's where that's where the growth really happens. And the way to the way to kind of grow through that is just to put yourself out there, put yourself in situations that you wouldn't otherwise. You know, even know what you're trying to accomplish there, or learn from or different people you know, mentors, things like that. So that's been a real driving factor for me to, you know, just stay interested and learn new industries and kind of understand and empathize with where people are coming from.

Speaker 2 17:03

So you know that, that you don't know what you don't know concept is is really important for me in terms of building a team. What I like, patrick, when's Hungry, humble and Smart.

Speaker 2 17:14

I think that concept again. I know it's nothing revolutionary or novel from my perspective, but I think the basic tenets of that are just really important in terms of the type of people I like to be working with. And I don't know what I don't know, especially joining into a new industry yet again. So what I do know is I'm not even close to the smartest person in the room in terms of almost anything we do, whether it's the sales process, the technical aspect of what we do, the history of what we do, so really spend a lot of time just learning early on what's going on within the organization and hopefully try and help people appreciate that same approach for each other. So it cultivates a good sort of collaborative teamwork and humility within the team.

Speaker 1 17:53

So many great points there. I think that feedback, right as we are growing and exposing ourselves to growth opportunities, especially in kind and caring ways, is really important, and I think sometimes people often shy away from to be like oh, I did, I like this, this and this that you did, but over here, maybe you could do it this way.

Speaker 1 18:16

You know that's really important, and also the staying humble. If I had to say one word that I would describe is humble and curious is how you approach things. So I'm curious how, with that, how do you maintain credibility as you are learning the industry, as you are the CEO? How do all those play together Right?

Speaker 2 18:38

Well and, to be sure, I am the COO. So Jan is our CEO, jan Peterkin and I'm serving in that second chair role, of sort of helping oversee daily operations and things like that. In terms of maintaining credibility, I think again starting into a new industry in the last year is really been just head down learning, talking to people, interviewing people on the team, just kind of understanding what's going on. Erin and I just got back from the big national conference called Hydrovision in Denver last week and you know, spent a lot of time in the different seminars and training sessions. You know I don't know what I don't know and then coming back and asking questions of our team and just learning from people on the team and hopefully that credibility I mean Erin could speak to this better maybe than I can in terms of whether I've been able to establish that credibility, but I think that's the key is just having that, you know, open, curious mindset and being humble to say I don't know yet.

Speaker 2 19:31

I know some things about, you know, building a business and organizing a team and kind of casting some vision, but at the same time I don't know a lot of things that are going on here.

Speaker 1 19:39

So and it sounds like it's really relationship building too.

Speaker 2 19:42

Sure how you interact with people.

Speaker 1 19:44

Yeah, thanks for, and I have no doubt you're credible. Let's let's just say that, let's clear that up. But you balance that so well. I wanted to touch on it because not everyone balances that so well as they lead.

Speaker 3 19:58

Alex is great at that. He's not the guy that's going to walk in and go. I'm the COO. I'm Alex Adama. Close enough, Adema.

Speaker 2 20:14

Shoot Edema. You're good, you're good. Keep going, keep going, I'm.

Speaker 3 20:16

Alex Edema and I'm the COO, and this is how it is. He never did that. He walked into the shop, introduced himself, said I don't know this industry, help me out. Yeah, and everybody went. Cool, you know, that's respectable. I mean, it wasn't a power struggle, right off the bat.

Speaker 3 20:36

It was just let's all do our best, to do our, to be our best. We're in this together and he said I don't know what, I don't know. I heard him say that on that podcast. I listened to a podcast he did because I was curious about him and I and I met him and I was like I listen to this podcast.

Speaker 3 20:52

He did because I was curious about him and I and I met him and I was like I listened to this podcast and here's the notes I took ah that was, that was that was good. I was impressed that, yeah, yeah, time to do that and so he answered all my questions and I was so impressed. And then that situation came up where we were dealing with a man who was like, ok, thanks for the info, let me talk. You know, if you get a minute, let me talk to the guy who is selling this.

Speaker 2 21:21

And you can touch base calling you.

Speaker 3 21:23

Yeah, I was telling him all the information he wanted, but he kept insisting that I pass him along to the guy, whoever the guy is. He wanted to talk to the guy. I told. I told um, alex, hey, would you give this guy a call? He just wants to hear a man's voice. I, I, I don't mind that either. Like I said, I guess I have great coping skills, because I didn't. It didn't even like phase me.

Speaker 2 21:49

I was like whatever sure, and alex was like no, I I refuse that.

Speaker 3 21:54

That's not something that I'm going to. What did you say I'm not going to?

Speaker 2 21:59

maybe indulge or?

Speaker 3 22:01

indulge him in that. You are capable. You know this information better than anyone else, so you know what. If you need my assistance, I'll help you through it, but but you handle it.

Speaker 1 22:15

How did that make you feel?

Speaker 3 22:17

Well, I was confused.

Speaker 1 22:19

You were confused, OK.

Speaker 3 22:20

I was confused because it was so like straightforward you got this, I know you have this and don't accept that, and for me that was like I don't even know what that looks like. So I had to take a date and I had to think about that. But it did make me think. So, yeah, thank you for that.

Speaker 1 22:42

What's your perspective on that, Alex?

Speaker 2 22:50

Well, yeah, I just thought I was annoyed by that concept in the first place.

Speaker 1 22:52

You know, there's maybe some more backstory of how I've gotten involved with Women's Leadership.

Navigating Women's Leadership Challenges

Speaker 2 22:54

Institute. Having three daughters growing up here in Utah, you know, getting ready to go off to the college years or whatever is next for them, I've become more and more aware of. You know kind of some of the limitations, the challenges that women may have in the workforce here. And I even know this person probably wasn't even based in Utah. It's just in general just offends me that you know somebody who who knows the trade, knows what they're doing, has been around a long time, sort of assumed to not be the right person to go to, and so that really, yeah, that kind of put me off. And you know it's possible. In this case we were trying to sell a piece of equipment, I think, and it's possible. Maybe we didn't get the sale or whatever it might be, and that might be a liability for the company to some extent. But at the same time that's not the kind of environment that we want to cultivate from a team perspective or respect for people in general. So, yeah, that was, that was my view of it. You know, one of the thought.

Speaker 3 23:48

I had. That's the unicorn right there. Go ahead Sorry.

Speaker 2 23:52

Well, you were asking about credibility too, and I think you know. One of the other thoughts that came to my mind is that I am still struggling with a little bit in terms of women's leadership at Sidewinders. You know we are a woman-led company as our CEO, and so who am I to come in here as the new guy and sort of introduce Women's Leadership Institute and the Elevate Her Challenge and these kinds of things.

Speaker 2 24:13

It's like you know, like you guys sort of already have some things figured out here that maybe you don't need the elements of Women's Leadership Institute and Elevate Her. So that's been an interesting kind of conversation for us internally because, again, we do have some of that figured out. That being said, I still think there's some great resources and opportunities and when you're in a real male dominated industry, like we are, this is the kind of thing that I think you need to start to raise awareness on and then continue to raise awareness on over time and keep it, you know, constant, consistent message, Um. But that, that being said, is back to your your question about the credibility piece.

Speaker 2 24:45

For me, being here, it's just kind of funny for you know, you know kind of middle-aged male coming in saying, hey, we need to do women's leadership when you already have a woman ceo. You have aaron, you know, running the shop with martin. Um, so it's kind of.

Speaker 1 24:57

It's kind of a funny kind of a funny scenario I love that you bring that up, first of all because humble is something you're like. Well, I don't know everything, but here's some thoughts and it has come up, um, when I ask people to be on the podcast, especially men, to talk about women's leadership or just leadership in general, but they're like I don't want to be mansplaining, right Right, but I don't like there's a difference to me of someone who's talking down to me about things that I write, like don't talk to me about having a baby.

Speaker 3 25:31

You can talk about your perspective on it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 25:34

Or, you know, don't claim that being a CEO is only something a man can do, but, like the principles of leadership and how to work with teams better, I think all of us have to be involved in that Right. But I do think there's been some backlash for sometimes, men who've spoken up. So, as both of you know, we at the women's leadership institute like we don't believe in shame or blame to anyone because it's going to take all of us. But I want you to know you're not alone in that and that's one reason why it's so important to have men on this podcast as well.

Speaker 2 26:06

Right to share well, and that's why I've been so engaged and active and advocating for women's leadership ever since I first started I think maybe in 2015,. Getting involved was yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't made to feel shame when I entered the room for the first time, I remember Pat speaking and it was like it was like okay, you're here because you want to be a part of what we're doing in a solution. You're not to be shamed for. You know just the way you were born and you know, you know. So that part is one of the key things for me from women's leadership perspective. I do find, you know, a lot of times it's talked about, especially at DPS Skis where we were doing a lot of these group meetings with our team and Pat would be there.

Speaker 2 26:42

Nicole would be there. You'd be there, whoever would. From time to time we talk about the imposter syndrome and it's interesting because I would just sort of keep my mouth shut about it all the time.

Speaker 1 26:53

But I would just sort of keep my mouth shut about all the time. But like I'm, I experienced imposter syndrome too.

Speaker 2 26:55

I don't want to say it here because I don't want to like try and sort of put myself at the same level, but it's interesting. I think as a human level we all feel the same insecurities to some extent, so I know they manifest in different ways and there's different circumstances that we all go through. But I like that through even the teaching of women's leadership, I have learned a lot just about myself as a leader and how to deal with some of these things that I know we're focusing on women dealing with them, but also the men do too.

Speaker 2 27:18

Yeah, absolutely, and trying to figure out where is our place to speak up and where is our place to just kind of hang out and absorb?

Speaker 1 27:24

Yeah, it's kind of the human condition in a way right that we talk about. I really appreciate you sharing that, you know, because we do talk a lot about. But I think everybody can experience, especially if you're in a growth place, like, yeah, what is my place here? How do I do this?

Speaker 3 27:40

I feel like. I feel like Alex and I are in a similar boat, so I came from my family business.

Speaker 3 27:49

Yes, he came from, I would say DPS skis was a family business for you, almost the way you talk about it with such love. Sure, yeah, to now we're both in a position of, like I don't know everything there is to know about our field service. Like he was just saying, we went to hydro vision. That was humbling. I don't know that much about hydro generators I don't, but it sounds cool. It is way cool, yeah, so I don't know. I'm learning alongside him. I know the motor side. I could talk about motors all day long. I know that, yeah, but the other side is humbling, yeah.

Speaker 2 28:37

Well, and that's part of kind of where we are as an organization too, where we have a couple of unique things that we do. We go out and we work on big hydro projects, we work here in the motor shop facility, we do staffing as well for this industry. But for us to move from this entrepreneurial environment where we just sort of get things done in each of those three areas is as a team we've already got the right people and many good people on the bus, but how do we kind of work to address all these things together in a more holistic sustainable and larger way.

Speaker 2 29:07

So that's that's true for all of us, I think, as we sort through the next phase.

Speaker 1 29:11

Yeah.

Speaker 3 29:12

Very cool, very exciting.

Speaker 1 29:14

Yeah, and really interesting because I feel like a lot of Utah businesses are kind of in this space, right On the smaller side, working to scale up. I mean, of course, we have really big companies here, national companies, but I think many of Utah companies we have really big companies here, national companies, but I think many of Utah companies are in this kind of space. So Alex touched on his experience with the Women's Leadership Institute and we're so grateful to have him. He's always been such a great ally and kind and always willing to jump in wherever we've asked. And sometimes he's like hey, I don't know about golf, like what do you want me to? What do you want me to bring to this? But you always bring something of value which we appreciate. Your experience, erin. You're in the career development series. What has been your experience there? What have you learned? Why would you like? What do you think other women might get out of it?

Speaker 3 30:08

Well, thank you for accepting my application. I have not written an essay for a very long time. A little bit of self-reflection there.

Speaker 2 30:24

It was, I'm sure it read like.

Speaker 3 30:25

I have imposter syndrome. I can't speak properly or like eloquently to other women. I don't know. For some reason I had it in my head that I was offensive to women. It's because I mainly converse with men.

Speaker 2 30:43

You're not, as practiced In a fairly raw environment, right? Right, in my own environment, yeah.

Speaker 3 30:50

Because I'm not out and about, we don't have customers coming in that are women, and you know what's funny is, a lot of women have said the same thing to me at the WLI. They're like, yeah, no, we work mainly with men. Like our whole table was like and we all kind of thought that same thing, wow, interesting, and I thought I am not alone. How weird table was like and we all kind of thought that that same thing, wow, interesting, and I thought I am not alone, how weird, how weird, because I thought that was just my own hang up, but I guess we all have them right.

Speaker 1 31:20

Yeah, I love that you said that you're not alone.

Speaker 3 31:22

I think that that I am not alone magic of gathering and sharing exactly, and I wouldn't have had that experience had it not been for this, because I wouldn't have gone and seeked it out, right, you don't call someone up and say, hey, tell me, I'm not odd.

Speaker 2 31:40

Tell me, I'm not odd.

Speaker 3 31:41

Tell me, I can communicate effectively.

Speaker 1 31:45

Has anyone in the class been like you're offensive in how you talk? No, so that's some good evidence, right?

Speaker 3 31:50

No has anyone in the class been like you're offensive in how you talk. No, so that's some good evidence, right? No, in fact, I got protein powder from one of the girls that works for me, sana. I got a new pen from one of the other girls, the really cute girl that dresses in the 1950s style. I can't remember her name. I'm so sorry she, she's the sweetest. Remember her name. I'm so sorry. Uh, she, she's the sweetest. She uh actually works at the megaplex and she loved loves gail miller and I also. That was one of my favorite.

Speaker 1 32:18

Yeah, gail is very um, she's very humble very open, very open, um, very curious. I was just telling my partner last night about Gail Miller and her story of, you know, going into the boardroom after Larry died and being like I would really like to be a part of this business.

Speaker 3 32:38

Like she almost was. Like can I yeah?

Speaker 1 32:40

Yeah, exactly, I'm just going to sit in the board meetings, you know, and see how it's done.

Speaker 3 32:46

You feel that, though you feel her, you feel that Like you feel her, you feel that Like can.

Speaker 1 32:50

I just have a seat here.

Speaker 3 32:52

So my favorite Gail Miller is Larry and I never wanted a divorce at the same time.

Speaker 1 33:00

Oh, back to your beginning of how relationships can be tricky.

Speaker 3 33:04

Yeah, they're totally tricky, fair enough. But that's my favorite Gail Miller quote. She's amazing.

Speaker 1 33:11

She is yeah Well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your perspective on gathering what you learned from the speakers and also the other participants in it.

Speaker 3 33:19

It's been an eye opener. It's really made me think. Yeah, because sometimes we're just doing our jobs.

Speaker 1 33:27

We don't really think about all the rest of the things.

Speaker 3 33:29

That sounds simplistic. You're making me think, but but really, really, it has made me like think about things a little more deeply yeah and with a little more care. So thank you. Yeah, thank you, alex thank you both.

Speaker 1 33:47

I'm sure it took both of you to make that happen, yeah.

Speaker 2 33:49

No, we're excited to, and, again, jen didn't take any convincing in terms of committing to the career development series, and so our goal is to have somebody go through the program every year, providing somebody wants to, so we don't want to force it or compel it, but you know, that was the track record that we had established with DPS, and I thought it was really effective and productive, and I think it's something that would be really beneficial for us here. The key is, though, is not just to have Aaron go and learn from CDS, but to start to bring some of that back and bring that into our culture and help us have a more common language around challenges or things like that.

Speaker 2 34:26

That could help us for the long term. Building the team and recruiting people. Retention I mean I know it's talked about. I remember Alex Shutman at one time talking. I know others have as well. But it's not only the moral imperative to do the right thing, but it's also a business imperative.

Speaker 1 34:39

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 34:40

I wouldn't pretend that being involved with Women's Leadership Institute and things like this is not also about building the business, because I think you want to find a way to show people they're valued, and you know we want Aaron, or whoever it is, to know that they're valued in being part of this company. We don't want them to leave long term, and so in doing you know, investment in people like this, you hope that it cultivates that environment.

Speaker 1 35:00

Absolutely, yeah, well, and two, it's been said that as you elevate women I think Joe Bernard said this from Ken Garf, right, as they really started focusing on that it elevated all employees, right, and if she builds her leadership skills, she's not going to send that man onto you. She's going to say, no, actually, you can talk to me and bring in other people, men or women, who also have those leadership skills to scale you to the next place that you want to be. So, yeah, I absolutely believe that this is not just a moral imperative for people, but also statistics prove out that it impacts the bottom line, right, it impacts your pipeline, all those kinds of things. I'm glad you brought that up, okay. So, as we wrap up, what haven't we covered today that you would like to share about this space of, like, the intersection of workplace gender, um, leadership, any other experiences you want to share, or anything else that you think might help those leaders in our audience who are listening?

Speaker 1 36:05

you get to go first. I know that's a a big question, but that's that's loaded.

Enhancing Workplace Diversity and Inclusion

Speaker 3 36:10

Yeah, that's a lot there's. There's no right answer, I don't. I just I do want to express my my gratitude to Alex and to Jan, because when they presented the women's leadership to me, it was like Would you like to do this? We feel like this would benefit you, and you know nobody had ever been like let's, let's put some stock into something that's costly invested in you right here's here's the money go, you know, put it towards yourself on us.

Speaker 3 36:49

Here's the money Go, you know, put it towards yourself on us. It's almost like a Christmas gift, you know, because it's not. You're not, you're gonna. You're gonna see the results because I've already started implementing things that I've learned, but it's not going to be like a tangible thing.

Speaker 1 37:07

It's not going to be like here's I went to the women's leadership here, here we can track like $5,000 of what I brought yeah.

Speaker 3 37:14

Here's what I've made I I, you know, we can sell this it's, it's an investment in in me and and they've done that and it. It blows my mind and it shouldn't, but it does.

Speaker 1 37:27

Well, I think once one, once people realize how important that is being invited, being being included, being included, being invested in. Yeah, it really does have dividends, right? Oh for sure. Yeah, you're going to be more loyal now, not that you're not going to do something else, but I think it goes back to relationship building, which is a very business tactic. I just I mean the feeling when you said that was definitely real and that has a lot of merit and I felt that from other women too of I have something to give.

Speaker 3 38:03

Yeah Well, you don't stop learning, you know. But if you stop putting value in that type of learning, you don't stop learning, you know. But if you stop putting value in that type of learning, you don't grow. And I hadn't been growing because you know it's I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 38:18

I wouldn't do that on my own yeah I wouldn't be like let's go and, uh, make me better. Yeah, but alex and Jan were like this is valuable and I thought, ok, I trust you guys, I totally trust you, and I went and I'm like this is cool. I think, if we can all work together and put a put aside our biases, we can. We can go further.

Speaker 1 38:58

Yeah, Alex. What about you? Is there anything additional you'd like to share?

Speaker 2 39:03

Uh yeah, so there's. There's two things that come to my mind that, um, we haven't really talked about that I think have been interesting in my process with Women's Leadership Institute and Elevate Her Challenge over the years, when first introducing this concept at some point, there was two different sort of receptions and I think one feels more negative but it spins to a positive, and the other is definitely very positive but I think it's good for people to be aware of, and the other is definitely very positive, but I think it's good for people to be aware of. So at first, when we talked about bringing the Elevate Her Challenge career development series, things like that in my former life, there was some concern that, ok, would women come in and take my job or is there not room for me? Yeah, but the point is, first of all, I appreciated the honesty in that question because without having that question, that thing would fester for somebody.

Speaker 2 39:48

And it's a real concern, yeah, and so you know, pat, in that context set up an environment that was comfortable to be able to have that conversation. So I think that's really important to move forward with these concepts so that the men can be a part of the dialogue. It's not just something that you send women to or whatever it might be, but it's like we're all trying to understand what the goal is together and how we get there, and then, additionally, with that piece is, as we're growing, there's room for everybody.

Speaker 2 40:13

You're trying to widen the pipeline, bring more diversity of women, in this case, into the company, but as we all grow there's room for everybody to grow.

Speaker 2 40:19

So that was one thing that you know. It first starts it feels like a negative question, but if you carry that and play that out in an honest way, you can really kind of get people engaged in a productive and more comfortable place with understanding what we're trying to accomplish. So that's the first piece. The second was we did a bunch of events at DPS Skis for Women's Leadership Institute where we invited the entire outdoor industry in that case to come be a part of it. And what was really cool was at first it started out as just the women organizing the event and we quickly opened it to all the men in the company that wanted to be a part and it was just really cool to see the buy-in and, hey, let me do this or that, like it was just event planning in that case. But you saw that first of all it shouldn't just be the women having to do the women's project about educating people about women.

Speaker 1 41:02

It's like let's get the men involved and it took no convincing.

Speaker 2 41:13

There was much enthusiasm and really not even enough to do for everybody that wanted to be involved. So I thought that was. Those were kind of two informative or illustrative stories of of how everybody in the organization wants to reach for these values together and sort of lift all ships at the same time. It's not just sort of the women doing their women's thing or the men being concerned.

Speaker 1 41:26

Yeah, it's more integrated.

Speaker 2 41:28

So I thought those two things were very informative, helpful and I learned a lot through those conversations yeah, I appreciate that.

Men's Role in Leadership Initiatives

Speaker 1 41:34

I'm sure there are other organizations who felt both of those right the ability to communicate freely and have safety on your team, to to really build those values and talk to one another, and also the fact of sometimes, when we do an event and it's just women who come. We love that, obviously, of course, but it's also like in order to move this forward, we have to have the men, and more often than not they're so willing to help, right? So, both of those things, well, as always, you two are delightful. Thank you so much for coming, sharing your expertise, your leadership, your feelings around these topics. We appreciate the work that you are doing and the relationship that you've shared right and created in the team that you have at Sidewinders. So, thank you Well, thank you very much. We appreciate being part of this. We're excited to keep going Good, thank you.

Speaker 2 42:24

Yeah, well, thank you very much. Yeah, we appreciate being part of this and, yeah, we're excited to keep going.

Speaker 1 42:29

Good, thank you.